Stocking Questions

Agrigor

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Hello!

I am new to the hobby and am trying to start off on the best foot possible. I currently have a fully cycled heavy planted 30 gallon aquarium. I own a betta fish and would like to create a community tank. I have researched what fish are usually compatible with a beta and am ready to slowly start stocking my tank.
The question I have is how many fish of varying species I can stock in my 30 gallon long tank to keep all the fish happy and healthy.

I would like to add:
6 endler’s livebearer
1 beta (currently own)
6 to 12 celestial pearl danios
6 Julii cory cats
2 dwarf frogs
ramshorn snails

Would that amount of fish be appropriate for my 30 gallon or would that be overstocked?

Thank you for your time!
 
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Welcome to TFF, and this wonderful hobby.

I am afraid I have less than good news. Assuming the betta is a male, it is not a community fish. Yes, you will read differently, but that does not make it true. Sometimes the betta will not tolerate any fish in "his" space, sometimes he may for a time until you wake up one morning to one or more dead fish. In reverse, many small shoaling fish (rasboras, danios as well as tetras, barbs) seem to find great delight in nipping the fins of a betta, and this causes the poor fish considerable stress and inevitably a quicker death. You can keep the betta in this tank, maybe add some non-upper water column fish, though I would not subject them to this ordeal. Or re-house the betta and make more use of the space here.

Another issue is water parameters, meaning the GH, KH, pH and temperature. We are primarily concerned with the GH and pH as these will be established in the source (tap) water and are the starting point. Some fish need soft water, some fish need hard water, some fish are in btween. Very general, but smaller fish like the rasboras mentioned are more demanding when it comes to these parameters. Yu might be able to ascertain the GH, KH and pH from your water authority's website. The GH and pH are the most crucial, but knowing the KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) is helpful.

Frogs and fish are not a good match. Here again there are those who will not object, but that is not usually wise, as the members who have kept them will mention. And what may work should not be taken as what will work; the abnormal is not the normal, and it is the normal we should always assume when it comes to the life of the fish.

The shoaling fish need larger groups, in the range of 10+. This applies to the rasboras, danios, cory catfish. But here we hit another issue, the Celestial Pearl Danios, which require a group around 20. They have a fascinating interaction, but males can be feisty in too small numbers.

For info on fish that is generally reliable, sites like Seriously Fish are good.
 
Welcome to TFF, and this wonderful hobby.

I am afraid I have less than good news. Assuming the betta is a male, it is not a community fish. Yes, you will read differently, but that does not make it true. Sometimes the betta will not tolerate any fish in "his" space, sometimes he may for a time until you wake up one morning to one or more dead fish. In reverse, many small shoaling fish (rasboras, danios as well as tetras, barbs) seem to find great delight in nipping the fins of a betta, and this causes the poor fish considerable stress and inevitably a quicker death. You can keep the betta in this tank, maybe add some non-upper water column fish, though I would not subject them to this ordeal. Or re-house the betta and make more use of the space here.

Another issue is water parameters, meaning the GH, KH, pH and temperature. We are primarily concerned with the GH and pH as these will be established in the source (tap) water and are the starting point. Some fish need soft water, some fish need hard water, some fish are in btween. Very general, but smaller fish like the rasboras mentioned are more demanding when it comes to these parameters. Yu might be able to ascertain the GH, KH and pH from your water authority's website. The GH and pH are the most crucial, but knowing the KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity) is helpful.

Frogs and fish are not a good match. Here again there are those who will not object, but that is not usually wise, as the members who have kept them will mention. And what may work should not be taken as what will work; the abnormal is not the normal, and it is the normal we should always assume when it comes to the life of the fish.

The shoaling fish need larger groups, in the range of 10+. This applies to the rasboras, danios, cory catfish. But here we hit another issue, the Celestial Pearl Danios, which require a group around 20. They have a fascinating interaction, but males can be feisty in too small numbers.

For info on fish that is generally reliable, sites like Seriously Fish are good.
Oh man, that is definitely a little disappointing to hear. I’ve felt like I’ve read so many articles and done so much research that said those fish would work together and all had similar water parameters.

Thank you for your comment.

If the betta and frogs were out of the picture, would the other fish numbers be appropriate for a 30 gallon?
 
One very unfortunate aspect of this hobby is the incredible amount of completely inaccurate, or misleading, information. Sadly, the fish suffer for it.

Before I answer the last question, what are the parameters? Though I can say that the CPD are suggested to be on their own in a group of 20. But depending upon the params, there are probably a great many suitable fish. If this tank is the basic 29g tank, length 30 inches, width 12 inches, it is a very nice size and open to many possibilities. I had two of these in my fishroom among my other tanks.
 
One very unfortunate aspect of this hobby is the incredible amount of completely inaccurate, or misleading, information. Sadly, the fish suffer for it.

Before I answer the last question, what are the parameters? Though I can say that the CPD are suggested to be on their own in a group of 20. But depending upon the params, there are probably a great many suitable fish. If this tank is the basic 29g tank, length 30 inches, width 12 inches, it is a very nice size and open to many possibilities. I had two of these in my fishroom among my other tanks.
One very unfortunate aspect of this hobby is the incredible amount of completely inaccurate, or misleading, information. Sadly, the fish suffer for it.

Before I answer the last question, what are the parameters? Though I can say that the CPD are suggested to be on their own in a group of 20. But depending upon the params, there are probably a great many suitable fish. If this tank is the basic 29g tank, length 30 inches, width 12 inches, it is a very nice size and open to many possibilities. I had two of these in my fishroom among my other tanks.
Those are the measurements of my tank!
 
Oh man, that is definitely a little disappointing to hear. I’ve felt like I’ve read so many articles and done so much research that said those fish would work together and all had similar water parameters.

Thank you for your comment.

If the betta and frogs were out of the picture, would the other fish numbers be appropriate for a 30 gallon?
Where are you reading articles that recommend Bettas with other fish and frogs with fish?
 
Where are you reading articles that recommend Bettas with other fish and frogs with fish?
Aquarium co op and literally almost every article that pops up if you google “can bettas live with other fish” or “compatible fish for Bettas” pop up dwarf frogs and a lot of different fish species.
 
Question: What other species can live with Betta
Answer: a snail
that's all folks!
 
The only reliable information is the information from a knowledgeable individual or site. Researching the species helps, and along the way one finds those individuals who have the knowledge. They also tend to agree on such issues, not deviate.

As Aquarium Co-op was mentioned, I have found unquestionably false information on this site and that means I do not use it, period.
 
Betta splendens can easily be a community fish. We are not dealing with facts in this thread, but strongly held opinions from individuals I respect. You can disagree with my statement, but I have extensive and long experience, and I do research. I've lots of Betta species, lots of Betta splendens. I've bred splendens, set up tanks with them. I respect the people who are telling you otherwise, but they are not the last word.

I never once had a Betta attack and harm a tankmate. It simply never happened. One day of showing off, and then...peace for around 5 years, if you have a healthy one to start. I did have tankmates nip at Bettas, and that's where the research is needed.


Did I have to run the community differently?

Yes.

The tanks needed surface vegetation, and other fish with no interest in a Betta's fins. No livebearers or herbivores, because they attack the tasty fins of the slow moving Betta. I assumed they mistook the breeder's art for rotting plant leaves. Generally small, peaceful tetras and Corys,a nd even better, small Rasbora group fishes. No strong currents as long finned fish are handicapped by those human selected fin shapes. Live plants. A tank of never less than 20 gallons, ideally with a 30 inch front glass.
There can be no other territorial fish, because a Betta with its drag from the fins and its poor eyesight will always lose out. You build the community around the one territorial individual.

Individuals with knowledge of fish always disagree. "Deviate' is a weird word choice, but disagreement is important for moving forward. We just have to accept evidence we're wrong if we have dug in on an opinion, and I have never seen any problems with my old community Bettas. I hope the people saying Bettas don't work in communities have experience they were able to rescue the fish from, and aren't repeating hearsay.

No frogs though. That would go wrong fast. Very fast.
 
I have no desire to prolong this whatever it may be called, but I hold the view that while there are exceptions to almost everything, there is also the "norm" and this is best accepted especially by new aquarists that do not yet have the skills to perhaps see some problems and take appropriate action when they occur. And I will say that personal experience does not ever equal the "norm" for any aquarist just by virtue of occurrence. I happen to have had a lovely betta many years ago that readily ate my neon tetras. In and of itself, this personal experience should not be taken as normal behaviour, but when one understands that this is more likely to occur than not, it becomes the "norm" to consider.

There is also the facts concerning this species (Betta splendens) natural habitat. I cite the references for this.

Betta splendens seems to live solitary in its natural habitat which is still and sluggish waters, including rice paddies, swamps, roadside ditches, streams and ponds. Such an environment is not conducive to fish that require oxygenated waters so one can expect few if any non-anabantid species to live in such habitats. During the dry season, most bettas are able to bury themselves in the bottom of their dried up habitat. There, they can live in moist cavities until water once again fills the depression during a rainy period. The fish can survive even if thick, clay mud is all that is left of the water. They do not survive total drying out of the bottom (Vierke 1988). There are very few fish species, and none that are found in the same habitats, that can manage life in such conditions, which is further evidence that the B. splendens is most likely a solitary species.

All anabantids are territorial; male bettas instinctively fight each other in defending their territory. Selective breeding over many years has produced fish with a heightened sense of territory defense, which explains the common name of Siamese Fighting Fish. Fish fights for money is a "sport," if you want to use the term for such animal cruelty. This means the bettas we see in stores have an even greater propensity to literally kill each other given the chance. For a fish that instinctively lives alone, and believes it must defend its territory to survive--both traits that are in the genetic blueprint (DNA) for this species--this aggressiveness is likely to extend to any fish that dares enter the betta's territory, which in most cases will be the tank space. And forcing the fish to "live" under such conditions is frankly inhumane.

Betta splendens profile on Seriously Fish.com
Hargrove, M. (1999), The Betta: an Owner's Guide to a Happy Healthy Fish, Howell Book House.
Kottelat, M. (2013) "The fishes of the inland waters of southeast Asia: a catalogue and core bibliography of the fishes known to occur in freshwaters, mangroves and estuaries," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology Supplement No. 27: 1-663.
Tan, H. H. and P. K. L. Ng (2005), "The fighting fishes (Teleostei: Osphronemidae: genus Betta) of Singapore, Malaysia and Brunei," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology, Supplement No. 13, pp. 43-99.
Tan, H. H. and P. K. L. Ng (2005), "The labyrinth fishes (Teleostei: Anabanatoidei, Channoidei) of Sumatra, Indonesia," Raffles Bulletin of Zoology, Supplement No. 13, pp. 115-138.
Vierke, J. (1988), Bettas, Gouramis, and Other Anabantoids, T.F.H. Publication, Inc.
 
I can understand why the original poster might look at us and wonder what's up. @Byron and I usually agree! I still think a backed up alternative view may be useful.

Wild Bettas are not always the only fish in their habitats. First off, their populations tend to be dense - territories are close together. There are other Anabantoids (air breathing via a modified inner ear) around, although it isn't a relationship that works in aquariums. Small Bororas, fish that used to be called Rasbora, are also around. So are small barbs, not a lot of which are in the hobby. They are adapted to the tough conditions by their small size.

The region Betta splendens comes from is vast, even if we don't look at where they thrive as an invasive species. They have adapted to many many environments, with many many other creatures around. The other inhabitants don't really interact with B splendens because the niche is different. Bettas like the surface, Rasbora and barb types like the substrate. A Betta watches for bugs at the surface. Other fish are of no interest to it. The betta's territory is at the surface. Don't get surface hugging tankmates, and you're good. For certain, their behaviour is instinct, but @Byron and I must have seen different instincts at work. We've both seen it's a shame when aquarists do things to get the Betta running all over the tank. It wants to hover under the surface waiting for bugs. If a fish gets in its way, it flares its fins. If the fish flares back, then it's on. That's why guppies, whose fins are permanently flared out, are doomed tankmates. Most other fish just swim away.

Bettas are cultivated to fight, unfortunately. The ones we get in the hobby tend to be cultivated for beauty rather than aggression, and wild Betta splendens (I've kept them twice) are fairly calm fish. Give a healthy cultivated Betta room, and all the ones I've kept have been easy going, but grumpy. A friend brought me fighting bred Bettas from Thailand once, only they thankfully were very easy going. Artificial selection doesn't always work.

There's a wealth of literature we can list, but why?

Robert J. Goldstein, Bettas, a complete pet owner's manual from Barron's , P. 49 says "Generally, livebearers, danios, South American tetras, and gouramies are safe co-habitants of the community tank."
I'd disagree with him on danios, but I know he wouldn't have minded. I doubt he was thinking of zebras, which can nip. Dr Goldstein knew his Bettas.

Helmut Pinter's Labyrinth Fish, page 96 suggests you should avoid nippy tankmates, and that's the extent of it. I don't have access to the list of sources you provided (I have read them). I just grabbed the first two books off the shelf beside my chair.

Really, all our fish need carefully chosen tankmates, and in that Bettas aren't crazily different. It just seems wrong to me to discourage people when they shouldn't be discouraged. I don't keep splendens anymore because I think the fancy fins are getting to inhumane sizes, but @Agrigor has one and it can have a good mutually safe home with a few other fish.

Celestial pearls stay low. If you ran the tank at 24-25C, and not higher, they'd be good. So would harlequins, who have never nipped a Betta in any of my tanks. Corydoras breathe air in the mouth and out the butt, and their dashes to the surface for air will sometimes take them smack through a Betta's turf. Bettas don't like that.
 
Betta splendens can easily be a community fish. We are not dealing with facts in this thread, but strongly held opinions from individuals I respect. You can disagree with my statement, but I have extensive and long experience, and I do research. I've lots of Betta species, lots of Betta splendens. I've bred splendens, set up tanks with them. I respect the people who are telling you otherwise, but they are not the last word.

I never once had a Betta attack and harm a tankmate. It simply never happened. One day of showing off, and then...peace for around 5 years, if you have a healthy one to start. I did have tankmates nip at Bettas, and that's where the research is needed.


Did I have to run the community differently?

Yes.

The tanks needed surface vegetation, and other fish with no interest in a Betta's fins. No livebearers or herbivores, because they attack the tasty fins of the slow moving Betta. I assumed they mistook the breeder's art for rotting plant leaves. Generally small, peaceful tetras and Corys,a nd even better, small Rasbora group fishes. No strong currents as long finned fish are handicapped by those human selected fin shapes. Live plants. A tank of never less than 20 gallons, ideally with a 30 inch front glass.
There can be no other territorial fish, because a Betta with its drag from the fins and its poor eyesight will always lose out. You build the community around the one territorial individual.

Individuals with knowledge of fish always disagree. "Deviate' is a weird word choice, but disagreement is important for moving forward. We just have to accept evidence we're wrong if we have dug in on an opinion, and I have never seen any problems with my old community Bettas. I hope the people saying Bettas don't work in communities have experience they were able to rescue the fish from, and aren't repeating hearsay.

No frogs though. That would go wrong fast. Very fast.
Thank you for your reply. I did get discouraged by some of the replies but after discussing the topic with my lfs and doing more research, I decided to go for it. I had an extra tank I could move my betta to if he got aggressive or stressed. He has been living peacefully with 3 endler’s and 6 Cory’s for 3 weeks now. He paid attention to them for maybe 10 minutes and has ignored them ever since. So far the endler’s have not shown any signs of nipping either.

I did take your advice and nixed the frog!
 

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