Stocking a 60 gallon tank

[Colin_T]

Rainbowfish need a general hardness (GH) of at least 150ppm. The KH can be anything as long as the pH is stabile and does not go below 7.0.

If rainbowfish are kept in water with a pH below 7.0, they can become nervous and panic a lot.
If the GH is too soft, they are more prone to bacterial infections.

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You can keep Khuli loaches with Corydoras, they are fine together. Bigger species of loach, like the Botias can be an issue when kept with Corydoras.

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With cichlids, it is best to only keep 1pr per tank. If the tank is big enough you can sometimes keep more than 1pr, but you have to monitor them closely and if they start fighting, separate them.

 

[Byron]

How much would I have to raise gh and kh for rainbowfish? Do they need alkaline water?

Colin already answered this, but I just wanted to comment that adjusting water parameters is not usually as easy as it may seem. Once you start messing with water chemistry, it can get very complicated as there are ramifications to changing one parameter (the GH to start with) that affects the others. It can get expensive if you resort to additives. Then there is the issue of other species that you may intend that are better suited (meaning they will be healthier and happier) in the source water as it is, so your adjustment for one species may detrimentally impact another. It also usually requires preparing water for water changes outside the aquarium, in tubs or whatever, and emergency water changes can be fatal if you cannot do them because of no prepared water.

Selecting species best suited to the source water makes life much easier, makes it much safer for the fish, and provides more success and enjoyment. I've no idea of your level of knowledge in fish keeping, but there are real consequences to every aspect of this hobby. The relationship of fish to their aquatic environment is more specialized than that of any terrestrial animal on this planet.

Also @Byron could you post a link to the article(s) about corydoras and loaches if you don’t mind? I’m interested in reading them.

This is basic understanding among the authorities. I learned it directly from Ian Fuller, and I will not argue with Ian on cory matters.

@Byron which species of loaches do you keep?

Over my 30 years I have had Botia striata, Botia kubotai, Yasuhikotakia morleti, Micronemacheilus cruciatus, Ambastaia sidthimunki, and Acantopsis choirorhynchos.

 

[Gourami36]

Colin already answered this, but I just wanted to comment that adjusting water parameters is not usually as easy as it may seem. Once you start messing with water chemistry, it can get very complicated as there are ramifications to changing one parameter (the GH to start with) that affects the others. It can get expensive if you resort to additives. Then there is the issue of other species that you may intend that are better suited (meaning they will be healthier and happier) in the source water as it is, so your adjustment for one species may detrimentally impact another. It also usually requires preparing water for water changes outside the aquarium, in tubs or whatever, and emergency water changes can be fatal if you cannot do them because of no prepared water.

Selecting species best suited to the source water makes life much easier, makes it much safer for the fish, and provides more success and enjoyment. I've no idea of your level of knowledge in fish keeping, but there are real consequences to every aspect of this hobby. The relationship of fish to their aquatic environment is more specialized than that of any terrestrial animal on this planet.

I do know about changing water chemistry... I definitely don't have as much experience as you (I'm not even as old as how many years you've been keeping fish) but my 6 years of experience keeping fish is not too bad but not that much either. I'll skip the rainbowfish and look for fish that do better in soft water.

This is basic understanding among the authorities. I learned it directly from Ian Fuller, and I will not argue with Ian on cory matters.

Could you link the articles by Ian Fuller? Who are the authorities? I want to read the articles
myself to have a better understanding than just "loaches and corydoras can't live with each other".

Over my 30 years I have had Botia striata, Botia kubotai, Yasuhikotakia morleti, Micronemacheilus cruciatus, Ambastaia sidthimunki, and Acantopsis choirorhynchos.

Wow. That's definitely more than I'll ever have.

 

[Byron]

Could you link the articles by Ian Fuller? Who are the authorities? I want to read the articles
myself to have a better understanding than just "loaches and corydoras can't live with each other".

As I said (or meant to if it didn't come across clearly) this was advice Ian gave me directly, but he has written it. He runs the website Corydoras World and a FB page of the same name. He has authored books, and articles on many aspects of keeping cories have appeared on his site, in the periodical Amazonas Magazine, and likely elsewhere. Several in co-authorship with Hans-Georg Evers, another recognized authority.

 

[Gourami36]

As I said (or meant to if it didn't come across clearly) this was advice Ian gave me directly, but he has written it. He runs the website Corydoras World and a FB page of the same name. He has authored books, and articles on many aspects of keeping cories have appeared on his site, in the periodical Amazonas Magazine, and likely elsewhere. Several in co-authorship with Hans-Georg Evers, another recognized authority.

Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Could you give me some suggestions for schooling mid-top dwelling fish?

 

[Byron]

Sorry about the misunderstanding.
Could you give me some suggestions for schooling mid-top dwelling fish?

No problem.

As to this question, I could suggest many fish but if any of the species listed in post #1 are still intended, that will make a difference which species. The water is soft/very soft (2 dGH) and pH is 7 (this will inevitably lower below 7 which is fine for soft water species).

 

[Gourami36]

No problem.

As to this question, I could suggest many fish but if any of the species listed in post #1 are still intended, that will make a difference which species. The water is soft/very soft (2 dGH) and pH is 7 (this will inevitably lower below 7 which is fine for soft water species).

I asked SeaChem which products I could use to raise gh and kh. They recommended equilibrium for gh and acid and alkaline buffers for kh. Could I just use cuttlebone? I used it on other tank to raise gh and kh to gh 10 and kh 7 for livebearers. Most species will probably be the same besides yo-yo loaches, boeseman’s rainbowfish and the tetras. Right now I have 7 corydoras aeneus in another tank. Could I try to put them with yo-yo loaches in the 60 gal? If they get along I can move them back to the other tank and get some corydoras sterbai.

 

[Byron]

I asked SeaChem which products I could use to raise gh and kh. They recommended equilibrium for gh and acid and alkaline buffers for kh. Could I just use cuttlebone? I used it on other tank to raise gh and kh to gh 10 and kh 7 for livebearers. Most species will probably be the same besides yo-yo loaches, boeseman’s rainbowfish and the tetras. Right now I have 7 corydoras aeneus in another tank. Could I try to put them with yo-yo loaches in the 60 gal? If they get along I can move them back to the other tank and get some corydoras sterbai.

Why are you considering raising the GH and pH? The 2 dGH and below 7 pH are ideal for soft water species listed, only exception being the rainbowfish.

 

[Gourami36]

Why are you considering raising the GH and pH? The 2 dGH and below 7 pH are ideal for soft water species listed, only exception being the rainbowfish.

Will the ph lower too much if I don’t raise the kh? I guess I don’t need to do it then.
I plan on keeping the same species as I mentioned in the first post besides the rainbowfish and deciding if I can keep corydoras with the loaches with the method I mentioned above.

 

[Gourami36]

I also have 2 backup tanks and 1 food safe 20 gallon container if something goes wrong with loaches and cories.

 

[Byron]

Will the ph lower too much if I don’t raise the kh? I guess I don’t need to do it then.

No the pH willnot lower too much, but here again it depends upon species, but also your water changes. I have eight tanks in my fish room, and my GH and KH is zero in the sopurce water and I add nothing to raise either. The pH in some of the tanks runs around 6.4, in others below 5. Weekly partial water changes of around 65 % of the tank volume in each tank have maintained a stable pH over a decade now. The biological system is unique to every aquarium, and once established, with substantial water changes, it will not fluctuate. I just ensure the fish in each tank are suited to that tank's biological system.

I plan on keeping the same species as I mentioned in the first post besides the rainbowfish and deciding if I can keep corydoras with the loaches with the method I mentioned above.

I also have 2 backup tanks and 1 food safe 20 gallon container if something goes wrong with loaches and cories.

With respect you are missing the point. It is not a question of "getting along" in the sense of fighting, but of not being impacted in ways that you cannot see. Ian noted that loaches are by nature much more aggressive feeders than cories; this does not mean the loaches tear into each other or other fish, it means they are much more determined to defend their space and eat their food. Cories will lose out, and over time this weakens them so they are not as healthy as they should be.

When considering species for a community tank, we need to consider many factors. But we must know and understand the natural habitat of the species so that we can begin to appreciate how the fish functions in that habitat. Aiming to provide as close as possible an environment replicating the natural habitat of a species is key to healthy fish. The fish "expects" certain things, and when they are denied the fish suffers. I will never advocate trying or experimenting with fish; that is cruel and inhumane. I research the fish species and its habitat, and I provide those things or I do not get that species:

How many of the species live normally together?
What sort of fish share its habitat?
What are the water parameters?
What is the physical environment like (substrate, wood, rock, plants, overhanging marginal vegetation)?
What is the water flow?
What is the light level?
How does the species interact among the individuals, and how might this be affected by another species?

I am always reminding myself of the thinking behind the blue and green citations in my signature block. Anything less and I am in the wrong hobby.

 

[Gourami36]

No the pH willnot lower too much, but here again it depends upon species, but also your water changes. I have eight tanks in my fish room, and my GH and KH is zero in the sopurce water and I add nothing to raise either. The pH in some of the tanks runs around 6.4, in others below 5. Weekly partial water changes of around 65 % of the tank volume in each tank have maintained a stable pH over a decade now. The biological system is unique to every aquarium, and once established, with substantial water changes, it will not fluctuate. I just ensure the fish in each tank are suited to that tank's biological system.

I thought all nitrification was prohibited under ph 6?

With respect you are missing the point. It is not a question of "getting along" in the sense of fighting, but of not being impacted in ways that you cannot see. Ian noted that loaches are by nature much more aggressive feeders than cories; this does not mean the loaches tear into each other or other fish, it means they are much more determined to defend their space and eat their food. Cories will lose out, and over time this weakens them so they are not as healthy as they should be.

When considering species for a community tank, we need to consider many factors. But we must know and understand the natural habitat of the species so that we can begin to appreciate how the fish functions in that habitat. Aiming to provide as close as possible an environment replicating the natural habitat of a species is key to healthy fish. The fish "expects" certain things, and when they are denied the fish suffers. I will never advocate trying or experimenting with fish; that is cruel and inhumane. I research the fish species and its habitat, and I provide those things or I do not get that species:

How many of the species live normally together?
What sort of fish share its habitat?
What are the water parameters?
What is the physical environment like (substrate, wood, rock, plants, overhanging marginal vegetation)?
What is the water flow?
What is the light level?
How does the species interact among the individuals, and how might this be affected by another species?

I am always reminding myself of the thinking behind the blue and green citations in my signature block. Anything less and I am in the wrong hobby.

Would it be possible to keep them together if I added ~10 codydoras sterbai first then after a while add 6 yoyo loaches?
If not can I keep kuhli loaches?
On another forum one of the corydoras people said it’s ok if I have backup tanks.

 

[Byron]

I thought all nitrification was prohibited under ph 6?

Probably, but that doesn't matter as the ammonia is changed immediately into ammonium which is basically harmless, and anyway the plants will take most if not all of this up rapidly. And thus nitrite never occurs, and nitrate will be zero or very low, depending upon the fish load. There are many watercourse in South America, including the Rio Negro, where the pH is in the low 4's or even into the 3's, but the waters are teeming with fish. Nitrate is zero, and that is worth noting.

Would it be possible to keep them together if I added ~10 codydoras sterbai first then after a while add 6 yoyo loaches?
If not can I keep kuhli loaches?
On another forum one of the corydoras people said it’s ok if I have backup tanks.

Risking fish to experiment is something I cannot endorse. It does not put the interest of the fish first.

 

[Gourami36]

Probably, but that doesn't matter as the ammonia is changed immediately into ammonium which is basically harmless, and anyway the plants will take most if not all of this up rapidly. And thus nitrite never occurs, and nitrate will be zero or very low, depending upon the fish load. There are many watercourse in South America, including the Rio Negro, where the pH is in the low 4's or even into the 3's, but the waters are teeming with fish. Nitrate is zero, and that is worth noting.

Is ammonia changed to ammonium in ph under 7 or under 6? And nitrite is less toxic in ph above 7 or 8 (I forgot which)? Zero nitrate is usually very hard to achieve in fish tanks unless they are very large (probably thousand of gallons or more).

 

[Byron]

Is ammonia changed to ammonium in ph under 7 or under 6? And nitrite is less toxic in ph above 7 or 8 (I forgot which)? Zero nitrate is usually very hard to achieve in fish tanks unless they are very large (probably thousand of gallons or more).

Ph 7 is sort of the divider, though it is a proportional balance. The positive and negative ions determine the toxicity of ammonia.

No idea about nitrite; I never have it as all my tanks are soft water with an acidic pH.

Zero nitrate is achievable in well-planted tanks, depending upon the fish load. Mine run in the 0-5 ppm range, but for all I know and given the accuracy of most of our aquarium test kits, they may be zero. This is related to the "cycling" aspect...in tanks with good plant growth including some fast growers, the "cycle" will never be seen with our tests because the plants are doing their thing faster. The AOB colonize of course, but "behind the scenes" if you like.