Stock for a tropical tank

Sadie

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Ok, so i've done my reading. I understand that i need to do a fishless cycle for the right balance, i know that different fish need different foods and things. I went to a Maidenhead Aquarium place today - i saw they were recommended in a fish magazine (dont remember which one) and theres one near me so i popped over there. There were so many fish! I picked out a few that i like but i need to know if they can live together ok.

I liked nearly every single kind of guppy going, zebra loaches, silver mollies and something thats name had been blurred by wet label. It was a "cow" fish - one that eats algae from the bottom. It was very very tiny, and kind of stripey. Would these fish live together ok? They need a "gallon" of space each right? Whats that in British terms?

Does anyone have a good suggestion for a good beginners tank? I am very willing to learn about fish!

Sadie xx
 
one gallon for one inch of fish. So if your fish is 5 inches, then you need 5 gallons just for that fish... i dont know that in british terms, but i do know that all those fish you mentioned can be together.i suggest a 30 gallon for a beginner
 
LOL... a 5 inch fish in a 5 gallon!!! The inch per gallon GUIDELINE reccomends that for each inch of adult fish, not including the tail, you need 1 gallon. This only really applies to small community fish of average waste output and activity level. This is also for US gallons.
 
You can lots of guppies as they don't need much sace. You can can have 1 male to every 3 females as they can get horny!
 
Um, the one inch per gal rule is very bendable and should only be used as a rule of thumb help get your research started, scenarios where is does and does not apply for example is you may be able to more than comfortably fit 10 1inch neons tetras in a 10gal but a 10inch plec would be far too big for it- you have to consider the fish's waste load on the filter and the ideal minimum of space it needs to happily swim in and a 10inch plec would barely be able to move around in a 10gal tank.
You should also aply the rule as to the fish's max adult size and not just its current one, again another example would be although the common plec you just bought only measure 2inchs at the moment and will fit nicely into a 10gal for the time being, it will eventually grow to over a foot long making the very tank overstocked.

Standard mollys grow to 3inchs while sailfins grow to around 4 or 5inchs, you cannot comfortably fit more than 2 in a 10gallon tank of either one.
How big is your tank/how many gallons does it hold or have you not got a tank yet?
Guppys and mollys belong to the livebearer fish family group and there is a section with pinned articles at the top and threads on livebearers if you need more info on them and i do suggest you look it up.
Unless you have an all-male group of livebearers they will definatly breed(even all-female groups can still produce offspring as the females can store sperm in them and have to 7 pregnancys from just one mating and are capable of having 30+ fry a month).
You also need to get the gender ratios right too if you have mixed gender groups unless you want alot of aggression/stress between them.

As far as i know there is no such thing as a cow fish and i would avoid it unless you can find out its scientific name or post us a pic of it, although it is most likely a khuli loach or cory of some sort as these are quite common bottom dwellers but i would still say no to getting it unless you are sure on what it is.
Firstly though have you got a tank yet and if so how many gallons does it hold and how far have you got as setting it up?
 
OohFeeshy said:
LOL... a 5 inch fish in a 5 gallon!!!
He said the 5 inch fish would need 5 gallons.

actually that "rule" Only applies to fish of a certain size, its like 3 or 6 or something like that, but over it that doesnt count. Especially with aggressive ones, or Mbuna, as the Mbuna need to be overstocked, etc.

You shouldnt keep mollies with any of the fish as they are Brackish, and prefer to be kept as such. I have no idea what a "cow" fish is, sounds SW to me.

The guppies are a good beginer fish, but they do die quickly. Ive also never had the loaches, nor read up on them, so I dont know about them either.

How many gallons is this tank anyways?
 
You shouldnt keep mollies with any of the fish as they are Brackish, and prefer to be kept as such. I have no idea what a "cow" fish is, sounds SW to me.
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Actually mollys aern't strictly brackish- if you research sailfins for example, in the wild they are found in both brackish and freshwater enviroments in rivers and underwater cave systems leading down to the ocean.
I have 2 standard female mollys in particular that have never had any contact with salt what so ever in their entire lives and have never been ill once in the year and a half i have been keeping them- they have even produced large haelthy batchs of fry, so please don't keep on saying they cannot live healthily/happily in freshwater, ok?
Sailfins mollys are more brackish than standard mollys but they are both very flexable.
 
Nope no tank yet. I'm waiting until i know what kind of fish i want before i set it all up.

The fish arent called "cow fish" its just what i call them because they are kind of like sea cows - they graze on green stuff all day lol.

So what fish do people recommend as beginner tropical fish? I have had lots of coldwater fish before, but never a tropical fish.

Sadie xx
 
Oh i forgot to mention i'd rather not breed fish just yet. I'm not so confident i could find good homes for them all round here.

Sadie xx
 
I suggest you go for a 30gallon, despite common belief it is actually easier to keep good water quality in a larger tank than a small tank- a 10gal tank will be much more suspectable to frequent fluctuations in ammonia stats for example while these will be much slower and easier to control in a 30gallon.
You should base what kinds of fish you have on the size of the tank you are going for and not the other way around- it makes things much easier to work out what your tank is capable of holding.
Lets say your tank has a good strong sponge filter(i don't advise carbon based ones as they remove the nutrients live plants need to grow and any medications you may need in the future for your fish- i shall explain later) which is capable of adequetly filtering a 40gallon tank at least as if you get one that can only handle a 30gallon it will be hard pushed to do its job properly when the tank is fully stocked.

Lets also say you have just completed your fishless cycle and the tank is now ready to handle its first fish- we shall also say it has sand substrate instead of gravel as this will help broaden the types of fish available to you.
Your first fish should be somthing hardy- all common livebearers(guppys, mollys, swordtails and platys) are hardy in general and though this is not as simple as that; long story short, many long tailed fancy guppys have been seriously weakend as a species via over-inbreeding which can cause all kinds of problems, and not just their ability to handle a new tank.
Examples of very inbred guppys would be these;

http://www.usaguppies.com/images/Japanese_Medusa_Galaxy.jpg

http://www.ccg.org.br/images/guppy12.jpg

http://community-2.webtv.net/guphoto/HybridPingu/

Yes, these are beutiful fish but also suffer alot of genetic problems in general and tend to die alot at a yound age- so question is, do you want somthing beutiful but very fragile or a more boring version of a guppy with duller colors and shorter tail but much more hardy and likely to live longer and healthier?
Most guppys grow to 1inch but some also grow to 2, but we shall base their part of the stocking based on they only grow to one inch.
For a 30gallon tank, i'd say you can happily fit 3-4 mollys(1male per 2-3 females) and 5 guppys(1male per 4females or a slowly built up group of all males- all male groups tend to have more issues than well gender ratioed groups but i suggest a mixed gender group for both mollys and guppys if you do not mind fry).

Because the tank will be sand based or very small rounded gravel(sand prefered though), this means you will be able to have corys or khuli loachs happily living in the tank- both prefer to be in groups of at least 3-4 of their own kind, here's some pics of both for your interest and i think they do make a good edition to any tank;

Albino corys(one of the many color/shape variations of corys and quite hardy);

http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_albcory.php

and khuli loaches;

http://www.loaches.com/species_pages/kloach.html

Both fish do the same job of filtering through the bottom of the tank with their whiskers/barbels and will help clean up a certain degree of uneaten food by other fish but still need their diet substituted with catfish pelets and/or algae wafers; they also need somwhere to dark to shelter during the day like a cave as they do have some nocturnal habits(although you will still be able to see them to an extent during the day), but they are easy fish to keep in general :thumbs:
You should be able to fit 3 or each or just 4corys or khuli loaches easily in your tank with my suggested stocking as mentioned. What do you think so far :) ?

Of this is all taking into consideration too that these fish will be added gradually over time and not all at once.
I think the cow fish you mentioned is most likely a plec- unfortunatly most of these grow massive but there are some smaller ones available and i shall try to find one for you- one that instantly comes to mind is bristlenose plecs but they are very unusual looking and not everyones taste but they do only grow to 4-5inchs.
 
*scribbles down notes* Wow im so impressed lol. Thank you so much :)

I really like the khulies - more than the albino corys. I also love guppies. There were about 20 different kinds of guppies in the aquatic place i visited. It has a very good reputation, so hopefully they will advise me well with which ones are hardy. I'll go for the plainer, less bred looking ones in any case.

How easy is sand to clean? I have one of those gravel cleaning pumps from goldfish before - would it work on sand?

Sadie xx
 
A gravel vac can work on sand but it will be harder to use although you can get a thing called a syphon which is basically a gravel vac designed for cleaning sand; you should clean the sand once a week making sure it is stirred up thoroughly and then do a water change depending how much water was taken out by the vac, 30% of water taken out and replaced with new water and adequete dosage of dechlorinator/water conditioner should be more than adequete for keeping good water quality once the tank is cycled.
Alternatively you can just thoroughly stir up the sand with your hand making sure it is realy stirred up and then do a 50% water change and leave the filter to sort out the rest and you can get away with this- i do this alot in my smaller more heavily planted tanks where getting the vac in without knocking over everything is imposible and i have managed to maintain good constant water stats with no problems with this method.

On the subject of buying fish though, i think one of the most important aspects of fish keeping is taking full responsability in every area of it, and i suggest you learn how to spot out unhealthy fish yourself when buying them without the stores staff helping you, this is a very usual thing to know how to do.
Some things to look out for when buying fish are(particually livebearers);

Before buying any fish, you should inspect it closely. From an animal's external apperance, you can detect many problems and diseases. Particulary examine the body, gills, fins, eyes and skin.
Body: Any healthy live-bearer's abdomen should look convex, when viewed in a profile. The female usually looks more convex then the male. These fish have a "chubby" look to them. This should also appear in females that have just given birth, even though they may look very slender. All other fish should appear well-fed.
Be careful of fish with protuding scales, and bloated bellies! Most times, if not all times, these fish are incurable.
A large head, that looks disproportionate to it's body, is usually a sign the fish has undergone long hunger periods. This doesn't mean the fish will die, but it shouldn't be used for breeding.
Gills: Healthy fish breathe slowly, although they breathe somewhat faster in a densely populated tank. As the fish breathe, they expose the gill cover. This should appear a pale reddish color, in healthy fish.
Fins: Missing or partially developed fins are ALWAYS a bad signal. Frayed edges on the fin, are usually the sign of a disease, although there may be other causes.
In a healthy fish, the fins should visably stick out from the body. The one exception is the dorsal fin in some species.
A fish that clamps it's fins, and maybe rocks from side to side is definatly not feeling well, and may easily get a disease.
Eyes: The eyes should appear clear, and never protrude un-natuarally from the head.
Skin: The skin should not show any white spots, mold, fungus, or white film. The scales should hug the body, and look smooth. Be sure to examine the tip of the mouth with extra care, to be sure there is no white film.

Another sign to look out for when buying healthy fish is avoid it if it seems to hang around on its own near the bottom of the tank alot as this is a common sign of a sick fish. Also avoid getting a female livebearer that is heavily pregnant(although this can be hard to find, particurally in guppys) because not only is the move from the fish shop to your tank twice as stressful (i.e she will be more likely to abort her fry, become ill and/or die). The other reason is if there is a sudden difference in water stats like ammonia in coming from the lfs tank water to yours, this can cause birth deformitys in the fry, cause still born fry and/or miscarriages.


Some deseases are more infectious than others and practically all lfs's will have one sick fish or another, but avoid buying from stores which have more than 4 fish dead in them.
Also there are some realy important deseases to look out for and avoid in fish;
a. Whitespot or somtimes known as Ich or Ick, the fish is covered in numerous white spots about 2mm in length is the main symtom. Avoid fish from any tanks which have any fish with signs of this desease- even if there are seemingly un-affected ones these fish will most likely be carrying the desease and it is highly infectious and can take a long time to treat- left untreated or un-adequetely treated and the desease is lethal and can decimate entire stocks of fish.
b. Red or inflamed bums on the fish- this usually indicates internal parasites and these are very hard to get rid of even with medication- very thin and not active looking fish also can donate this or internal bacteria which is also just as bad.

A good site with lots of pictures of fish deseases to help you indentify them and treat them is;

http://www.fishpalace.org/Disease.html#Popeye


On the subject of your cow fish, a good site for info and pics of catfish/plecs is;

http://www.planetcatfish.com/core/index.php

Just go to to Cat-eLog and they'll have all catfish available to fish keepers and as much ifo that is currently known about them- they have thousands of fish listed to say the least.

My only other thing i can suggest right now is water testing kits, make sure you have ones that test for ammonia, nitrates and nitrites and test you water on an everyday basis while you are cycling your tank, after it is cycled just make sure you test the water at least once every week :thumbs: .
Testing your ph/gh/kh may also be helpful so you know these stats are in your area and will help you decide on more fragile fish in the future although i strongly advise not to use any ph alterers/boosters as these are most often unesarsary for the fish and can cause many complications and stress- basically not worth it unless you have a fish that is realy specific about these things and you know how to use them properly.
If you have anymore questions just post on here :nod:
 
fishlover900 said:
You can lots of guppies as they don't need much sace. You can can have 1 male to every 3 females as they can get horny!
actually, the smallest tank you can put a guppy in, even if you only have 1, is a 10 gallon. This is due to the fact that guppies are very curious and love to have something to explore. If you have a 10g for them, then you can put upto5-6 in there. 1us gallon is about 4 litres. so 1inch of fish per 4.0 litres is about correct.
 
I don't know whether Tokix mentioned this but the less in-bred guppy varieties are also the largest - if you look at reds and half-black reds you'll notice the difference as these are bigger than say the grass or yellow varieties. Try to get the bigger ones and avoid small ones or those with a lot of blue or yellow on them. These colors are newer mutations and heavily inbred. One more thing, you can safely go with all male guppies or mollies. There is rarely ever any aggression between them so you don't HAVE to go for a mixed gender group. Telling the sexes apart is easy - the anal fin (single fin under body just before the tail) in males forms a long, tube-like 'gonopodium' in all livebearers while the female's is fan-shaped. You should be able to see the difference very clearly if you compare them and with a little practice. :)

Also, khulies tend to bury a lot during the day while cories are very active. You may preffer to go with cories because of this. Cories also grow to a smaller size than khulies and are easier to feed. There are many varieties besides the albino - look at bronze, peppered and blackfin. These are all very hardy. The albino, BTW, is a color morph of the bronze (c. aenus).

And just to back up Tokis - never rely on an LFS to give you good advice. They may sometimes give the right advice but it is often vague or lacking accuracy. Other times you get unlucky and it is plain wrong. Just research all your fish carefuly on the internet and in up-to-date books.

Something about the 'inch per gallon guideline' as well - you asked for the 'british version'. Well a british gallons is slightly bigger than a US one so I would go for one inch of (ADULT) fish per 4 litres of water and keep in mind that this only applies to fish up to about 5" in length and that are not aggressive. Also, some fish, like cories for example, should be kept in groups. In the case of cories, a group of 4 will suffice. With tetras, rasboras etc that you may add later 6 is the minnimum.
 

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