Still Battling Amonia - On The Verge Of Giving Up Hobby

[sussexgirl]

I posted a few weeks ago on here. To cut a long story hopefully shorter.............my tank had been established and running great for over 2 years. I bought a large peice of bogwood back in early March, soaked it for 6 weeks and then put it in the tank. Went away on holiday for a week and when I came back I had high ammonia levels. Nitrite was fine and Nitrates were 0. Asked my LFS for advice and was given Ammo Lock to use and to do plenty of water changes. This I have done ever since late April and still my tank is showing ammonia readings. How often should I be changing the water exactly because my readings today were actually 8! It's so frustrating because the tank is clean, I'm changing regularly, do not over feed my fish (very small amount once daily), am using the Ammo Lock and nothing's changing. Even if my tank did start to cycle again for some reason surely it woud be done in less than 2 months? I'm starting to think I have a problem with my filter.

I have considered setting up my Aqua One 320 and rehoming my dwindling number of fish into that and starting again with my main tank. Giving it all a really good clean, taking the filter apart or even buying a new one. Another part of me is just tempted to sell my big tank and keep hold of my smaller tank that will be a lot less maintainence. I used to love this hobby but now I just look at my tank and my heart sinks.

Any suggestions?

 

[RedeyesUK]

I think the ammo lock is the problem here. I'd stop using it and see how you go from there.

I'm not entirely sure of the science, but I think that ammo lock will convert ammonia to ammonium, which is non toxic, but will still show up with the tests. I'd have thought an ammonia reading of 8PPM would have resulted in a tank full of dead fish!

Apart from the readings, is there anything actually wrong with the tank? Are you getting a lot of deaths? What are your nitrite & -ate readings at the moment? And did you remove the bogwood that started the problem in the first place?

 

[sussexgirl]

I think the ammo lock is the problem here. I'd stop using it and see how you go from there.

I'm not entirely sure of the science, but I think that ammo lock will convert ammonia to ammonium, which is non toxic, but will still show up with the tests. I'd have thought an ammonia reading of 8PPM would have resulted in a tank full of dead fish!

Apart from the readings, is there anything actually wrong with the tank? Are you getting a lot of deaths? What are your nitrite & -ate readings at the moment? And did you remove the bogwood that started the problem in the first place?

No haven't removed the bogwood because my LFS told me it couldn't possibly be that that's causing the problem. Yes, I've had quite a lot of fish deaths. Since all this started in April I've lost 1 rummy nose tetra, 1 neon, 1 female fighting fish and 3 corys. I just don't see what the problem is. My filter seems to be running well, I even have a smaller additional filter fitted in the tank. Maybe I should just do a water change tonight and another on Friday and not put the ammo lock in and test again on Saturday to see if there's any difference.

Any other suggestions folks?

 

[tibby25731]

It's the Ammo Lock, it will still give you a reading though it converts the ammonia. Stop using it, give the tank chance to settle down to show your real levels. I'd keep testing for a week or so, see what happens. in the meantime i would do a 25% water change each day to get all the ammo lock out. Then at least you can see if your water params are giving you a problem or not. Don't give up!

 

[backtotropical]

Hi Sussexgirl,

We are getting a bit confused here. Let me try to straighten this out for you.

Ammo-Lock works by converting highly poisonous ammonia (NH3) into relatively safe (but not actually non-toxic) ammonium (NH4). The bacteria in your filter will use either one, they're not fussy which, so whether you have ammonia or ammonium won't affect your filter cycling.

Where it can cause confusion is when you test the water for ammonia. Most ammonia test kits will measure 'Total Ammonia' which is ammonia + ammonium, so you could test and then think you still have lots of toxic ammonia, when in fact it could all be relatively safe ammonium. There is no way of telling whether you have ammonia or ammonium using aquarium test kits.

Regardless of whether you have toxic ammonia present in your tank, or whether it has been converted to ammonium by Ammo-Lock, the very fact that you can detect any of these with your test kit indicates that there is a problem. As i said, the filter bacteria will feed on ammonia and ammonium so a healthy tank would test 0 for both (regardless of Ammo-Lock).

The first thing to do is establish why you have ammonia / ammonium levels in your tank.

The fact that you are experiencing deaths indicates that at least some of the 'Total Ammonia' showing in your test is probably ammonia. Don't stop using the Ammo-Lock. It may confuse the test results slightly but it de-toxifies the ammonia in the tank, which is what your fish need.

With ammonia / ammonium levels of 8, i'm surprised you still have fish, and that is probably due to the Ammo-Lock. However, you need to get rid of the ammonia from the tank, so do a 90% water change straight away, and start doing 50% each day. When you change the water, make sure the replacement water is roughly the same temperature as the old tank water. Keep an eye on ammonia levels and if they are creeping up again, you need to increase your water changes. Don't be afraid to do large water changes. They will save your fish's lives where ammonia is involved. Also, cut back feeding to every other day in the meantime until you get this sorted. Your aim is to keep the ammonia level as low as possible (under 0.25 if possible, but certainly under 0.5).

Now to finding out the cause. I agree with your LFS that the bogwood doesn't cause ammonia spikes.

What size is the tank and what filters are you using?
Are you using any carbon , ammonia remover etc in the filters?
How often do you clean the filter / replace the filter media, and how do you clean it?
What fish are in the tank?
What is your nitrite reading?
What is your nitrate reading?
What pH is your tank water?
How often do you gravel vac?
Is it possible that there is a dead fish somewhere in the tank or filter that you don't know about?

Get back to me with answers to these questions, and i'm pretty sure we'll be able to sort this for you.

BTT

edit: upon reading in another thread just now, it appears that another member may have suffered an ammonia spike due to a piece of bogwood rotting in his tank. Can you take the wood out and give it a thorough examination too? Cheers.

 

[sussexgirl]

What size is the tank and what filters are you using?
Are you using any carbon , ammonia remover etc in the filters?
How often do you clean the filter / replace the filter media, and how do you clean it?
What fish are in the tank?
What is your nitrite reading?
What is your nitrate reading?
What pH is your tank water?
How often do you gravel vac?
Is it possible that there is a dead fish somewhere in the tank or filter that you don't know about?

Get back to me with answers to these questions, and i'm pretty sure we'll be able to sort this for you.

BTT

edit: upon reading in another thread just now, it appears that another member may have suffered an ammonia spike due to a piece of bogwood rotting in his tank. Can you take the wood out and give it a thorough examination too? Cheers.

OK, thanks so much for your reply, you've basically confirmed what I had been thinking regarding the Ammo Lock so I'll continue with it for now.

Answers to your questions:

• Today's readings: Ammonia 8, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0, PH7.4
• I gravel vac thoroughly weekly - never go any longer (aside from when I was on holiday in April and the it went 2 and a half weeks).
• Can't see any dead fish anywhere in the tank, I had fished everything out aside from a rummy nose that just disappeared 2 weeks ago. Have taken the tank apart and checked the filter and found nothing.
• Will remove bogwood tomorrow and check it over. I had thought about removing it but wanted to see what good water changes would do first.
• Did a 60% water change this evening just prior to seeing your response. Will do 50% every day over the next week.
• I am using Aqua One zeolite in my filter. Have used it for the past year as my LFS told me it was carbon that also removed ammonia in the water.
• Current fish in my tank: 2 siamese fighters, 3 neons, 2 rummy nose so just 7 total. I've never stocked higher than 14 fish.
• Size of tank: well it's an Aqua One 620T and holds 130 litres. I am using the filter that comes standard with that plus a small Aqua One filter that I used to run in my nursery tank. The two filters have been running side by side for the past 18 months.
• Replaced the filter media in the tanks main filter back in November (my LFS told me I need only replace the white noodles yearly). I always rinse my black sponges and white filter pads out every fortnight in tank water that I've syphoned out of the tank. I gravel vac and water change weekly (prior to the ammonia spike anyway, now it's more often).

Hope this is enough information. I really want to get my tank through this but I feel like I'm getting nowhere. Your replies and advice are very much appreciated.

 

[sussexgirl]

edit: upon reading in another thread just now, it appears that another member may have suffered an ammonia spike due to a piece of bogwood rotting in his tank. Can you take the wood out and give it a thorough examination too? Cheers.

Have read the post you're referring to. Will be getting mine out tomorrow for inspection. It was very very dry when I bought it and took a long time to sink in my waterbutt. A chunk of it fell off when I put it into my tank which was a shame because it kind of ruined the shape. And, there are always lots of broken off tiny peices in my gravel when I gravel vac. Maybe, just maybe it is rotting.

 

[rabbut]

Don't replace the noodles, they are permanant. The other medias only need replacing when they are blocked to a point where water flow is restricted after cleaning out

I don't think what you are dealing is an ammonia spike. In those circumstance you would see nitrate and/or nitrite going wild also as the filter struggles to cope with it. Something must be outcompeting the biological filter bacteria and is now inhibbiting them from growing back. I bet that the Zeolite is the issue.

The LFS is wrong. Carbon leaves ammonia in the water. Zeolite is used in QT tanks as an ammonia remover. It is a chemical media that becomes saturated and stops working over time. Remove this and replace with proper biological media such as Ceramic rings. With these, the tank will be allowed to cycle as it is suposed to, and the problem will sort itself out

HTH
Rabbut

 

[backtotropical]

• I am using Aqua One zeolite in my filter. Have used it for the past year as my LFS told me it was carbon that also removed ammonia in the water.

Sounds like you know what you are doing. A few points though

1. I'm interested that you are using Zeolite. That will be part of the problem. Zeolite removes ammonia from the water column which will make it unavailable to your filter bacteria. This will prevent your filter from cycling properly. Once you start using it, you are dependant on it because your filter won't be coping with all the ammonia in the tank. So as soon as you remove it, you will suffer an ammonia spike. You will also see an ammonia spike if the Zeolite becomes saturated. You should remove the zeolite and replace it with more ceramic noodles. This should help the situation immensely. Make sure you continue to use your Ammo-Lock, and continue the water changes.

2. Nothing to do with the current situation, but i'm afraid your LFS has mislead you slightly on replacing your filter media. When you replace it, you are effectively throwing away the beneficial bacteria we work so hard to establish. You don't ever need to replace the filter media until it either starts to fall apart, or becomes so clogged up with dirt that cleaning it doesn't do any good anymore. (This doesn't include the white filter pads as they are purely to stop your other media becoming too dirty. These can be changed as often as need be.) When you do replace the filter media, never replace more than 1/3 of the media at any one time.

3. Again nothing to do with the current situation, just an observation. The black sponges shouldn't need cleaned every fortnight. These only need cleaned when they become clogged enough to reduce the flow through the filter. Every time you wash them, you are losing some bacteria. The bacteria will reproduce to compensate this, but no point throwing it away for no reason.

Cheers

BTT

edit: Beat me to it, Rabbut! Sussexgirl, i'd probably check the bogwood anyway, just in case.

 

[sussexgirl]

Ok guys now I'm confused. When I set up my tank my LFS told me to set up my filter and what order to do it in. There are two sides to the filter and the order in which they're prepared is the same on both sides. I have the white floss on the bottom with the ceramic noodles lying on top. I replaced only a third of the noodles last November so the majority of them have been in the filter since the tank was new. The white floss I only replace when they're saturated but I do wring them out in syphoned off tank water every fortnight (LFS suggested doing this but I'll stop if you think that's too much). Then ontop of the ceramic noodles are the black sponges and then finally ontop of that is the bag of zeolite.

So, you're both saying that the zeolite is 'causing' the ammonia? The LFS said that it was a bag of carbon with properties to remove any ammonia that may be in the tank. They told me it far more preferential to carbon and that I should take advantage of the fact they had it on offer. I should point out that though there was 2 months (mid March to mid May) where I didn't use this and just had the regular bag of carbon in both sides of the filter. The zeolite only went back in the filter about a month ago so I was actually getting ammonia readings where there wasn't any zeolite in the tank.

So, I need to take the zeolite out, buy regular carbon, keep up the daily water changes and take my readings daily right? No need to remove the bogwood?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

to say this situation has been going on for two months with no solution I'd be looking to drastic action.

I get this gut feeling that there's too many things going on in the tank with the different chemical media and ammo lock, somethings stopping the bacteria from developing and functioning so you need to stop that from happening.

For me, it would be back to basics time.

Remove the bogwood (cos you just never know, while in theory it's safe it's entirley possible that it was contaminated someehow), remove the zeolite from the filter (replace it with more noodles or bio balls, you don't need carbon), do a massive water change (90%) and don't add any ammo lock, just dechlorinator. You've said you've another small tank, take some of the mature media from this one (no more than one third) and put it in the filter for the big tank, it won't cycle it instantly but will help.

Then go through a fish in cycle, water changes every day to keep ammonia and nitrite under 0.25ppm. The mature media from the small tank should help so hopefully this process won't take too long. Once the filter is cycled you shouldn't have any issues.

There's a lot of products on the market which are supposed to help with ammonia, IMO theres no substitue for allowing the filter to cycle naturally and just using plain old water changes to keep things manageable while this us happening. I've seen it a few times where people have lots of products going into the tank and they seem counteract each other or just make things worse.

 

[backtotropical]

So, you're both saying that the zeolite is 'causing' the ammonia? The LFS said that it was a bag of carbon with properties to remove any ammonia that may be in the tank. They told me it far more preferential to carbon and that I should take advantage of the fact they had it on offer. I should point out that though there was 2 months (mid March to mid May) where I didn't use this and just had the regular bag of carbon in both sides of the filter. The zeolite only went back in the filter about a month ago so I was actually getting ammonia readings where there wasn't any zeolite in the tank.

So, I need to take the zeolite out, buy regular carbon, keep up the daily water changes and take my readings daily right? No need to remove the bogwood?

The Zeolite is probably the main cause of your ongoing ammonia problem (although i'm not ruling out the bogwood yet). The zeolite removes ammonia from the water (the ammonia bonds to the zeolite) and once it does this your filter bacteria can't use it. Therefore, having zeolite in your filter effectively means that your filter isn't properly cycled as the filter bacteria aren't processing all the ammonia being produced in the tank.

This is actually why you still had ammonia readings when you removed the zeolite, because your filter can't cope with all the ammonia on its own. Zeolite shouldn't be needed in a healthy aquarium (there are exceptions but i won't go into that, they don't apply here), and in many cases can make things worse by uncycling the filter. Correct me if i'm wrong but it sounds like you removing the zeolite actually coincides with the start of your ammonia problems?

Regular carbon isn't required for day-to-day filtration either. Replace your zeolite with bio-media, such as ceramic noodles, keep up the water changes and keep an eye on ammonia (and nitrite) levels. You should probably examine the bogwood anyway, just to be sure, or you could remove it as Miss Wiggle suggests until the tank is cycled.

You only need to use the Ammo-Lock if there is ammonia present in the tank.

Cheers

BTT

 

[Tolak]

What product are you using to treat the replacement water, and how much are you using?

Never trust your water company when it comes to aquatics, ever. They generally provide a safe healthy product for human consumption, which often makes it bad for fish. Consider doubling up on dechlorinator, pull the zeolite & carbon.

 

[sussexgirl]

I'm using API Stress Coat for my decholrinator, have never used anything but that. I've doubled up on it during last night and tonights water changes. My ammonia reading is down to 4 today but I still have a long way to go. The zeolite is out and more noodles have gone in.

Miss Wiggle my quarantine tank isn't currently up and running but standing empty in my garage. I haven't had the need to use it for around 12 months so didn't see the point of running it. So, I'm afraid my large tank is going to have to cycle without any added media from the smaller tank. I see what you're all saying now and to be honest I'm a bit peeved with the advice I've been given from my LFS. You're right BacktoTropical, when I think about it the problem did start around the time I removed the zeolite.

OK, well it's a week of water changes for me and hoping my little fish make it. The bogwood is also out and back in my sealed water butt outside.

I'll let you know who how it goes and thank you so much to all of you for your advice.

Sussexgirl

 

[backtotropical]

I'm glad you are getting things sorted, Sussexgirl.

4ppm of ammonia is still way too high. I'd advise a water change of at least 75% immediately, then another 75% change tomorrow. That should bring ammonia down to a more manageable for the fish, then continue with the 50% changes every day. Remember, the only safe level of ammonia is 0, so you need to get it as low as possible and keep it there until the filter is properly cycled.

Thats a shame your other tank isn't running. Do you have any friends or family with an established tank? If so, steal a bit of their filter media. It would help immensely. If you don't know anyone, have a look here for a willing TFF member near you.

Unfortunately, bad advice from an LFS is all too common. The thing is, the LFS always has an alterior motive, to make money. Always check on here if you are unsure where you will get friendly impartial advice from people who aren't trying to make a profit from you.

It would be interesting if you could monitor the ammonia level in the water butt, to establish for definite whether the bogwood does have a part to play in the ammonia problem. It would be good for your peace of mind too if you ever decide to put it back in the tank.

Keep us updated with your cycling and if you've any questions, just ask.

Good luck!

BTT