Still Ammonia

[tlef316]

To make a long story short, i had a rather large plant rot and die in my 75 gallon about 6 weeks ago. The pieces of it were everywhere and caused an ammonia spike. I lost a few fish, but i thought i had gotten it under control. It was a very painful lesson (not enough lighting or ferts, went away for a weekend, hornwort exploded)

Now, fast forward to today. About 10 days ago, i noticed that the ammonia had somehow spiked again. (my test kit said almost 4 PPM, although I'm not sure that was accurate, as I have some very sensitive fish that would have shown some effects)

Anyways, i started doing daily water changes, and eventually got it down to about 1 PPM. However, nothing i do can get it any lower. There is nothing decaying in my tank (i tore it down to just pure substrate to make sure)

- Like i said, I've done a dozen 25% water changes over the past 3 weeks.
- I use API water conditioner with every change
- I dont clean the glass with any type of ammonia cleaner
- i only feed once a day, 5 times a week
- There are 2 filters on there (Aquaclear 110 and aquaclear 50)
- the tank is understocked
- Ph is low. It doesn't show up on the API test(tap is 7)
- i tried biosphera last night. Does not seem to have had any effect.

I just put in some real plants last night (upgraded my lighting)

Current stocking-

1 panda cory (his buddies died in the initial incident)
2 peppered corys (same)
8 cardinal tetras
10 rummy nosed tetras
10 zebra/leopard danios
4 clown loaches (still only like 3 inches long)
1 german blue ram(again, the other one died)

I've tested this tank with 2 diferent test kits and the results are the same (1 PPM) I tested my tap water and it came out pretty much clean (like .25) so i guess the test is accurate. I'm gonna go to the LFS today with a sample just to be sure.


What the heck can i do at this point? If there is indeed ammonia in the tank, what the hell is killing my bacteria colony? (it has to be dying, otherwise they would have multplied to handle the ammonia weeks ago) The only thing i can think of at this point is the Ph. However, i know that trying to change the PH is generally a losing proposition. Should i take a look at the hardness of the water? Would a low Ph kill off the bateria?

Any advice would be appreciated. I want to start re-stocking my tank a bit, but can't justify doing so until it is clean. All fish seem very happy and are showing zero signs of stress. They were more colorful than ever last night with the real plants and new lighting, but i know there is a problem. Please help. thanks.

Travis

 

[Colin_T]

First of all do not touch the PH. If the PH is below 7.0 it would explain why you haven't lost the sensitive fishes. Ammonia is not toxic in acid water (PH below 7.0). PH does not affect the bacteria living in the filters. Nor does soft or hard water. The bacteria simply grow in whatever the water is, eg hard and alkaline, soft and acid.
Don't feed the fish for a couple of days and see if the ammonia level drops. Fish can go for weeks without food so they won't suffer from a couple of days without it.
Gravel clean the tank to remove any fish food or waste that may be rotting in the gravel.
Make sure there is plenty of surface turbulence as the filter bacteria are aerobic, (require oxygen). The more oxygen in the water the better the bacteria do.
Make sure the filters are run constantly and check that no-one is accidentally turning them off at night. Don't wash or change any of the filter media. Just let the filters run for at least a month. Obviously if they start to block up and get dirty then clean them. Only wash the filter materials in a bucket of aquarium water, then return the media straight back into the tank.
If you have ammogon, a white granulated substance normally supplied with the Aquaclear filters, then remove it from the filter. It will absorb ammonia until it is full then won't absorb any more. Just take it out and throw it away. You can replace it with another sponge or some noodles/ ceramic beads.

As for water changes, if you need to drop a high ammonia level you are better off doing a 50-75% water change. 25% water changes don't do much to reduce high levels of anything. Your normal water change can be 25% but for pollution/ ammonia issues, do more.

 

[tlef316]

ok, I will leave the Ph alone.

My small aqua Clear filter came with that granulated stuff. I just figured it was similar ot the ceramic rings in the first one. Good call. I'll remove it and replace with rings.

Filters are always on. The lights are on the timer, but the filters run all day. Nobody touches them. both are hang on back also, so there is plenty of surface movement (disturbs the sand at the bottom if i dont put a piece of bogwood over where it hits)

The sand is pretty clean, as I vacume every time i do a water change. There is nothing rotting down there. I've disturbed it several times and moved it all around last night while planting. (plus tank is understocked)

I don't feed wednesday's anyway, and i fed last night. I'll hold till friday. I'll also do one more big water change.

What do you think is producing the ammonia? The granulated stuff leaking? What else could it be? I have never cleaned my filter media in anything but tank water.

I'm assuming i need to wait till all this shakes itself out (even with the low Ph essentially neutralizing the ammonia) before i buy fish. That stinks, but i guess its necessary.

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Colin_T]

I am guessing that your ammonia is coming from the fish and that the ammogon in the filter was absorbing it and preventing the filters from developing the beneficial bacteria needed to keep the water clean and free of ammonia. The ammogon probably got filled up when the plant died and that started the whole thing off.
If this is the case then the filters will now cycle but it should happen pretty quickly because the tank has been running for a while. See how things go over the next few weeks and if the ammonia goes away and you get a nitrite reading that goes up and down, then leave it until after that before adding some new fish. If the ammonia goes away and you don’t get a nitrite reading within 2 weeks of that, then you should be fine to start adding fish as well.

 

[tlef316]

I am guessing that your ammonia is coming from the fish and that the ammogon in the filter was absorbing it and preventing the filters from developing the beneficial bacteria needed to keep the water clean and free of ammonia. The ammogon probably got filled up when the plant died and that started the whole thing off.
If this is the case then the filters will now cycle but it should happen pretty quickly because the tank has been running for a while. See how things go over the next few weeks and if the ammonia goes away and you get a nitrite reading that goes up and down, then leave it until after that before adding some new fish. If the ammonia goes away and you don’t get a nitrite reading within 2 weeks of that, then you should be fine to start adding fish as well.

cool. thanks. The ammogon will come out tonight. we'll see what happens.

 

[tlef316]

ok, just got home.

The Stuff in the small filter was NOT ammogon. It was just small ceramic pieces for biological filtration. so there goes that theory.

Tap PH= 6.6
tank PH- off the charts low, so less than 6(obviously not good)

Ammonia- somewhere between 1 and 2 ppm
nitrite- 0
nitrate- 5 ppm(been doing LOTS of water changes lately in an understocked tank)

So what does this mean? Hell if i know. Should i keep doing water changes? Do i have to figure out a way to buffer the water and raise the Ph?

 

[Colin_T]

If the filter did not contain ammogon then for some other reason it sounds like the tank is cycling again. You might have to wait it out and see how things develop. In theory if it is cycling again you should start to get a nitrite reading within a few days to a week. The nitrites should start to go up and when they do the ammonia should drop to 0. Then a week or two later the nitrite should also drop to 0 and the tank should be finished with its cycling process.
Check the filters to make sure there isn't a dead fish or some rotting plant stuck in the intake.
Don't bother about the PH. If the fish are fine and eating then just keep doing partial water changes to keep the ammonia levels low and hopefully in a week or so we should see a change.

The only other thing I can think of is the light timers are shorting out the powerboard and shutting the filters off at night. Highly unlikely but perhaps check the filters after lights out just to make sure this isn't happening.

Do you have any driftwood in the tank? It might be breaking down and producing the ammonia, again unlikely, but maybe.

No one else is feeding the fish while you are away?

 

[tlef316]

If the filter did not contain ammogon then for some other reason it sounds like the tank is cycling again. You might have to wait it out and see how things develop. In theory if it is cycling again you should start to get a nitrite reading within a few days to a week. The nitrites should start to go up and when they do the ammonia should drop to 0. Then a week or two later the nitrite should also drop to 0 and the tank should be finished with its cycling process.
Check the filters to make sure there isn't a dead fish or some rotting plant stuck in the intake.
Don't bother about the PH. If the fish are fine and eating then just keep doing partial water changes to keep the ammonia levels low and hopefully in a week or so we should see a change.

The only other thing I can think of is the light timers are shorting out the powerboard and shutting the filters off at night. Highly unlikely but perhaps check the filters after lights out just to make sure this isn't happening.

Do you have any driftwood in the tank? It might be breaking down and producing the ammonia, again unlikely, but maybe.

No one else is feeding the fish while you are away?

I do not have a nitrite reading and never have (not since my initial cycle) I have 5 ppm nitrate right now.

Yes, a fair amount of wood in the tank, and I'm sure thats contributing to the Ph drop. Its all mopani wood that i bought from a store, so i don't think it's leaching ammonia. There are no rotting fish or plants.

Nobody else feeds the fish. I'm positive of that.

Filters are not shutting off. I come home pretty late some times and they are always on.
'

I really don't think the tank is cycling again. As i said, this has been an issue for about a month-6 weeks now (thats when the first incident happened with the dead plant)

 

[Colin_T]

hmm. I'm stumped. Ammonia comes from something breaking down in the water. If there is nothing breaking down in the tank then there shouldn't be any ammonia. The test kits give different results when you test tap water so that would mean they are working ok.
The only thing I would suggest is to remove the wood and see if it has any effect on the ammonia in the tank. You can put the wood into a bucket of clean water and see if you get an ammonia reading after a couple of days. Besides that I am out of ideas, sorry.

 

[Bignose]

First of all do not touch the PH. If the PH is below 7.0 it would explain why you haven't lost the sensitive fishes. Ammonia is not toxic in acid water (PH below 7.0). PH does not affect the bacteria living in the filters. Nor does soft or hard water. The bacteria simply grow in whatever the water is, eg hard and alkaline, soft and acid.

Just a few corrections here. Ammonia is still toxic is acidic water. Just not quite as bad. Please look at http/www.fishforums.net/content/forum/15...Ammonia-Charts/ which I wrote a year and a half ago. It shows how there is always some toxic ammonia and some not-nearly-as-toxic ammonium. And, yes, the ratio between the two does depend on pH, but there isn't some magic switch which turns all the ammonia to ammonium at a pH of 7.0. There is always some toxic ammonia, no matter what the pH is.

The bacteria are affected by pH. See http/cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~alleman/w3-a...r-behavior.html The optimum growth occurs between pHs of 7.5 and 8.2, and above 9.5 or below 6 should be avoided since the bacteria that grow in fishtanks don't do well at all. In this case, the pH is indeed fine, but it is not correct to say that the pH does not affect the bacteria.

To the OP, the best thing to do is large water changes as often as you can. The large water changes will keep the concentration of ammonia low while the bacterial colony catches up. Doing large water changes does NOT slow down your cycle. I showed that in this article: http/www.fishforums.net/content/forum/22...cling-Are-Good/ The large water changes do keep the levels of ammonia low to minimize damage. You can do the large water changes while you investigate the source of the new ammonia. Just be sure to match the temp, pH, and hardness of the water. If you've been using the same tap water for all the water in the tank, then the tap water is going to match pH and hardness. Just make sure that the tap water is close to the same temperature and you can safely do very large changes -- 50%, 70%, even 90% if you want. It is very important to keep the ammonia levels as low as you can because there is research that shows that even low levels of ammonia do permanent damage to fish's immune systems. So, water change, water change, water change. It will be the best thing for the fish.

 

[tlef316]

yeah, I've been doing 25% water changes every other day. I guess i need to go bigger. Pain in the butt with such a big tank, but whatever.

 

[tlef316]

just did a 50% water change. Hopefully it makes a dent

 

[Colin_T]

To tlef316
Sorry about the following reply. It is not aimed at you but more for bignose.

Just a few corrections here. Ammonia is still toxic is acidic water. Just not quite as bad. Please look at <a href="http/www.fishforums.net/content/forum/15...Ammonia-Charts/" target="_blank">http/www.fishforums.net/content/forum/15...Ammonia-Charts/</a> which I wrote a year and a half ago.

Hey Bignose
you're sticking it in the wrong place again. If you have nothing better to do than follow me around the web then I suggest you spend more time studying engineering and less time trying to find fault with what I write. Otherwise propose to me and lets get married. If you're not going to propose then go away.
If I have a choice of believing what a biologist/zoologist or an engineer wrote about biological processes, I will go with the scientist because that is what they are trained in. From what I gather you are an engineering student and as such don't have the qualifications to go head to head with a qualified scientist, (Hans A Barnsch). And as is typical with most other engineers you understand the subject but are unable to easily converse the results to the average layman.

Quote from Baensch Aquarium Atlas, ISBN: 3-88244-050-3. Vol1 pg36

Toxic ammonia and non-toxic ammonium are produced in the first stage of the nitrogen cycle. The PH value greatly determines which of the two predominate. Ammonia occurs at a PH of 7.0 and over; ammonium at a PH of less than 7.0. Ammonia build-up cannot occur in water which has the slightest acidity and from this one can understand the importance or regular PH checks.

My response
Even though you get an ammonia reading in acid water it does not harm the fish because it is ammonium and not the toxic ammonia.
----------------------------------------

The bacteria are affected by pH. See <a href="http/cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~alleman/w3-a...r-behavior.html" target="_blank">http/cobweb.ecn.purdue.edu/~alleman/w3-a...r-behavior.html</a> The optimum growth occurs between pHs of 7.5 and 8.2, and above 9.5 or below 6 should be avoided since the bacteria that grow in fishtanks don't do well at all.

Quoted from the above link
Behavior and Physiology of Nitrifying Bacteria
James E. Alleman, Ph.D. and Kurt Preston
School of Civil Engineering
Purdue University
West Lafayette, Indiana

pH and Alkalinity
Nitrifying bacteria prefer an alkaline environs, with optimal pH levels ranging from the mid-seven's to mid-eight's. For `nitritifiers,' their apparent preference for the high end of this range seemingly reinforces the hypothesis of their initial NH3-N substrate form.

Aside from the ambient pH itself, nitrifiers appear able to handle rather sizable dynamic transients in this parameter. However, after acclimation, it would be best for their activity if the pH were kept as consistent as possible. Concerns expressed over alkalinity stem principally from its correlation and impact on system pH. Alkalinity levels adequate to stop pH from dropping below the preferred alkaline range should be adequate.

pH
The pH level should be routinely monitored. Slightly alkaline values are preferable, within a desired range of ~ 7.5 to 8.2. pH levels above 9.0 to 9.5, or below 6, must be avoided since either extreme may harm the nitrifiers.
-----------------------------------------------------

My response
The optimal growth might be in water with a PH between 7.5 & 8.2, however they are highly adaptable and as stated by the authors in paragraph 2, sentence 1, they are able to tolerate large variations in this area. They also state concerns over alkalinity stem from the impact on system PH. This has to do with the higher life forms in the water body/ aquarium and keeping the PH stable for them, not for the bacteria.

Re: Paragraph 3, titled PH, and your statement of the same effect. Most fish live in water with a PH below 8.5, (seawater in the Indian and Pacific oceans), however there are a couple of places in the world where huge populations of fishes live in water with a PH around 9.0. Lake Tanganyika (reaches 9.2) & Lake Victoria (PH of 9.0) in Africa have extreme PH values and these are carried into the aquarium. The filter bacteria survive quite happily in rift lake tanks. If they didn't then nobody would be able to keep rift lake fishes alive due to the high toxicity of the ammonia in the water.
(The PH values for the rift lakes were quoted from African Cichlids of Lakes Malawi and Tanganyika, 10th edition, ISBN: 0-87666-792-2, pg 16).
(The PH of seawater in the Pacific and Indian oceans were from my test results when I measured the PH of them).
Further to this it only takes a single bacterium to survive the extreme conditions and start to replicate itself. Once the individual has divided and its offspring have divided a few times, you quickly develop a strain of bacteria that is not only capable of surviving in that environment, but it thrives. This is shown clearly by the fact we now have drug resistant bacteria living quite happily in hospitals.

It is pointless stating the bacteria won't do well in a PH above 9.5 when there aren't any fish that live in this water anyway. (9.2 being the highest recorded).
As for the bacteria not doing well in a pH below 6, areas of the Amazon River regularly have a PH below 6.0. As have many creeks and streams throughout tropical Asia. I have also kept and collected fishes from the southwest of Western Australia and many of these fishes are found in extremely acidic water, (PH values between 4 & 6). These fishes are kept in acid water when brought into captivity. The filter bacteria in their aquariums seem to do well even at such a low PH. This is indicated by the fact you can test the water and watch the ammonia/ nitrite cycle going through its individual stages. If the bacteria was unable to proliferate under these extremes you would not have ammonia getting converted into nitrite and then into nitrate. You would simply get an ammonia reading and nothing else.

(PH values are from my tests but also see the following).
<a href="http/tolweb.org/tree?group=Lepidogalaxias_salamandroides" target="_blank">http/tolweb.org/tree?group=Lepidogalaxias_salamandroides</a>

Pusey, B.J. and Bradshaw, S.D. Diet and dietary overlap in fishes of temporary waters of southwestern Australia, Ecology of Freshwater Fish, 5: pp 183-194 (1996)

-----------------------------

To the OP, the best thing to do is large water changes as often as you can.

Why did you add this when all through this thread Travis (aka tlef316) has been telling us he has been doing heaps of water changes?

 

[Bignose]

Colin, firstly, I was just backing up your suggestion of doing large water changes. That is probably the best thing right now.

Secondly, I'm not following you around. I click on threads, and if I spot incorrect info, I post the correct info. It is that simple. Besides, I've replied to maybe 10 of you posts now -- as of this writing, you've made 376, that's like the worst stalker ever.

Thirdly, I was just pointing out a poor word choice: "PH (sic) does not affect the bacteria living in the filters" It is not right to claim no effect, because there is some. Had you said "pH has very little effect on the bacteria living in the filter so long as you stay within 9.5 and 6.0, you will be fine" I wouldn't have had a problem. It is a small thing, but I think it is important. It comes up sometimes when dealing with old tank syndrome when the pH has dropped down into the 5s or maybe even the 4s. The bacteria won't grow very well at all at those pHs and often times old tank symdrome has lots of ammonia in the tank, too. It's actually an interesting thing, because outside of those ranges, other bacteria start to grow. This actually can cause a tank to have to completely re-cycle, because the "normal" fishtank bacteria start getting out competed by the high pH or low pH bacteria, and while the transition occurs, the wastes can build up again. If the water ever gets returned to its normal range again, then another re-cycle occurs as the normal range bacteria have to grow back again.

Finally, the information in Baensch is wrong. Nature doesn't flip-flop. All of the ammonium doesn't suddenly convert to ammonia at a pH of 7.0 Nature doesn't sit there holding everything at ammonium at a pH of 6.99 and then suddenly quickly change is all to ammonia if a basic molecule comes in the neighborhood and change the pH to 7.01...

Everything in nature is in equilibrium. An ammonia molecule changes back and forth to ammonium all the time. NH3 (ammonia) picks up an H+ and becomes NH4+ (ammonium) for a time, then releases the H+ later, then picks up another, releases it and so on. The pH determines how frequently an NH3 can pick up an H+ and for frequently it can release it. Low pHs mean lots of H+s free, so the NH3 can frequently pick up a H+, and when it releases it, there is another right there available. High pHs mean that there aren't many H+s free, so that when the NH3 find that rare one and takes it in, it will release it again sooner.

If nature immediately flipped all the ammonia to ammonium at a pH of 7.0, what that says is that every NH3 suddenly grabs every H+ available as soon as the pH gets below 6.99999999 or that every NH4+ suddenly releases its H+ as soon as the pH hits 7.000000001. This just is not what happens. The Baensch quote is a gross over-simplification of what happens.

This concept of equilibrium can be found in any basic chemistry book. Please, look it up if you don't believe me, your local library will have a chemistry book that should explain this. Or talk with someone who has studied chemistry. This is a basic concept that has been confirmed time and time and time again.

Finally, just because info is in a book, it doesn't mean it is right. The species of ammonia oxidizing bacteria (AOB) and nitrite oxidizing bacteria (NOB) identified in those older books isn't right either. Just because it is in the book, doesn't mean that it is right. It wasn't until Dr. Tim Hovanec in 1996 discovered the correct species, and that lead to the development of the only truly successful cycle in a bottle product out there -- BioSpira. BioSpira works because it has the actual AOB and NOB that colonize fishtanks in the bottle -- all the other bottles of stuff don't have the right species of bacteria in them. The information about ammonia and ammonium in the Baensch book is wrong. The information in that article I wrote is correct.

Besides, if the flip-flop occurs right at 7.0, what happens if the pH is exactly 7.0? Half and half? Can the pH ever be exactly 7.00000000000?

There will always be some ammonia and some ammonium, the pH determines the ratio of the two. And yes, acidic pHs do have smaller rations of toxic ammonia to not-as-toxic ammonium, but, the amount of toxic ammonia will NEVER be zero.

=====================

edited to add:

I just wanted to come back to this as the end here, about my "following you around" I am here because I like to spread the most accurate info that is available to as many people as I can. Sometimes I have to "step on someone's toes" and it seems like I might have stepped on yours here. I am not being personal about this at all. I haven't singled you out. If you look through my history, I've done this many, many times. When there is incorrect information posted, I do my best to try to correct it. It is not personal. When there is something posted that I don't believe immediately, I ask the poster for sources. Again, it is not personal, but if someone makes extraordinary claims, then I'm going to ask for extraordinary evidence. It is not personal, if anyone posts something I am skeptical about, I ask for evidence. I don't just take people at their word. If I claimed I was 22 feet tall and can create replicas of the Sistine chapel with my calves, wouldn't you ask for proof before you believed that? If you would believe that, I've got some awesome sub-prime mortgage backed hedge funds I want to sell you -- I guarantee they'll quintuple in value next year. All I ask for is proof, it is not too much to ask for. In the same way, whenever I contradict someone, I always try my best to bring proof to the table to show where the info is wrong. One more time, let me stress that it is not a personal issue at all, it is all about presenting the most accurate information we have to date possible.

 

[tlef316]

Ammonia up to around 1ppm again (after being closer to .5 after the big water change)

Nitrates are at 5 ppm.

I'm gonna take a water sample to the big fish store tomorrow. I am stumped at this point and freaking sick of wasting time and water doing water changes. It isn't making any progress. It just temporarily lowers the levels.

Nothing is rotting anywhere in the tank. Something is stopping the bacteria from growing. I can't figure out what.