🌟 Exclusive Amazon Black Friday Deals 2024 🌟

Don’t miss out on the best deals of the season! Shop now 🎁

Starter Kit Lighting Enough?

boshk

Fish Fanatic
Joined
Dec 9, 2015
Messages
128
Reaction score
63
Location
HK
These are the plants I have at the moment in my tank, most as you can see are starter/beginner plants but I'm having problems with them.
 
-Anubias Nana: 2 of them melted.....I didn't plant the rhizome into substrate but they still melted/rot...(photo below)
-Bacopa: some leaves melted
-Cabomba: are growing slightly
-Amazon swords: no change
-Java-fern: newest plant, no change
-Java-moss: 1 tiny patch, no change
-Staurogyne repens: some are growing
 
2 weeks old cycled Tank: 125L (33 gallon)
Temp 22.5C (72F), pH 7-7.2, KH=4, Nitrate 40+
 
Lighting is the standard Juwel 2x28W T5 Hi-Lite with reflector (nature 4100K and Day 8000K) I switched out one of the Daylight for the Nature
If I use that simple watt per gallon calculator, it would be 1.7W/gallon for me.
 
I don't expect massive growth but at least a little, am I expecting too much in such a short time frame?
 
I don't have the lights on a timer, its on when I am at home, should I put the lights on timer?
I have no CO2 setup yet
I dose Flourish (none-Excel version) at 1/2 dose only because I'm not too sure what it will do to my cories and red cherry shrimps.
 
I was debating full CO2 setup which I can get for US100 (ista brand) but not sure if the lights and low fert are sufficient
 
any advise or opinions?
 
 

Attachments

  • CAM00209.jpg
    CAM00209.jpg
    100.4 KB · Views: 118
  • CAM00219 (1).jpg
    CAM00219 (1).jpg
    80.6 KB · Views: 124
Sometimes when plants are put into a new tank they will die back before growing again.
 
How many hours do you have your lights on for? They recommend having them on for 6-8 hours a day normally.
 
Hopefully someone with a lot more knowledge than me will be able to probe a bit more to be able to help you
 
I like your tank!
 
What is the tall and airy-looking plant in the vertical photo? On the right, behind the wood? It is cool.
 
Mark
 
Mark Z. said:
I like your tank!
 
What is the tall and airy-looking plant in the vertical photo? On the right, behind the wood? It is cool.
 
Mark
Kabomba and amazon sword
 
First off, your lighting is on the bright side, as it is T5 (I am assuming the "HiLite" is HO meaning High Output, the wattage would suggest this) so it is not that you don't have sufficient over this tank.  Watts per gallon is generally useless, with today's more efficient lighting.  This formula sort of worked back in the days when the fluorescent we used was all T12, but T8 which replaced it uses less energy for the same or even more intensity, and T5 is more intense still.  Then there is LED.
 
Second, this light is what drives photosynthesis, but the plants need nutrients to achieve this, and they are probably minimal or lacking in some cases.  Once a tank becomes established (after a few months), organics build up in the substrate and thus nutrients increase...primarily CO2 but others too.  I would use the Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium (to give it it's complete name, as Seachem make several different products in this line), once a week on the day following the water change.  For a 33g tank, I would use 1/2 teaspoon per dose (this is according to their directions).  You can dose it a second time, after 3-4 days.  I sometimes do this initially, then cut back once the system stabilizes; too much fertilizer can cause algae, just as too little can, or too much or too little light--everything has to be in balance.
 
Third, you have plants with very different requirements in terms of light and nutrients.  Cabomba is high light and thus more nutrients (to balance), whereas Java Moss and Java Fern are low light (and thus fewer nutrients necessary).  Swords are sort of in the middle, being moderate light requiring.  
You may find some plants do well, others don't, over time.  I have tried many plants, but after many years I stay with the ones that grow well in my situation.  You also have to deal with the acclimating period that plants go through, as another member mentioned, and the instability of a new tank.
 
I would get a timer for the lights.  Plants have a biological rhythm, just as all fish and animals have, and plants will be better with a stable period of light/dark every 24 hours.  The period of light can vary, from around six hours to more, remembering that algae will take advantage of any excess light/nutrients beyond what the plants need/use.  I tend to use algae to sort this out; my tank lighting are now "on" for 8 hours each day (one tank is only 7 hours) because beyond this brush algae increases.  It is also important to keep the same schedule, so the 8 hours occur at the same time each 24-hour period.  Ambient light in the room, from windows and night lighting, also enters this equation.
 
So at this point, I would dose Flourish Comprehensive maybe twice a week, but be prepared to cut back to once.  The day following the water change does seem to work better, then 3 days after that if the second dose is used.  Do not be too thorough in cleaning into the substrate during water changes, as this is where the organics build up to provide essential CO2 and other nutrients.  Put the light on a timer, start with maybe 7-8 hours; this can be any time of the day, just so long as it is consistent and you have a comparable period of complete and total darkness in the room.  This full night is essential for plants and fish.
 
Give this a few weeks, then it can be adjusted (the lighting duration, or the fertilizer) if necessary.  It takes a few weeks for any changes to be noticeable in plants, and keep in mind that some may do well and others not.  I cannot grow Cabomba at all, but my swords are thriving like weeds.
 
Byron.
 
benthyer said:
Sometimes when plants are put into a new tank they will die back before growing again.
 
How many hours do you have your lights on for? They recommend having them on for 6-8 hours a day normally.
 
Hopefully someone with a lot more knowledge than me will be able to probe a bit more to be able to help you
not many hours at all. If I'm around, its on for about 6hrs a day, if I'm not, its off.
Time to get a timer and set it up.
Byron said:
First off, your lighting is on the bright side, as it is T5 (I am assuming the "HiLite" is HO meaning High Output, the wattage would suggest this) so it is not that you don't have sufficient over this tank.  Watts per gallon is generally useless, with today's more efficient lighting.  This formula sort of worked back in the days when the fluorescent we used was all T12, but T8 which replaced it uses less energy for the same or even more intensity, and T5 is more intense still.  Then there is LED.
 
Second, this light is what drives photosynthesis, but the plants need nutrients to achieve this, and they are probably minimal or lacking in some cases.  Once a tank becomes established (after a few months), organics build up in the substrate and thus nutrients increase...primarily CO2 but others too.  I would use the Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium (to give it it's complete name, as Seachem make several different products in this line), once a week on the day following the water change.  For a 33g tank, I would use 1/2 teaspoon per dose (this is according to their directions).  You can dose it a second time, after 3-4 days.  I sometimes do this initially, then cut back once the system stabilizes; too much fertilizer can cause algae, just as too little can, or too much or too little light--everything has to be in balance.
 
Third, you have plants with very different requirements in terms of light and nutrients.  Cabomba is high light and thus more nutrients (to balance), whereas Java Moss and Java Fern are low light (and thus fewer nutrients necessary).  Swords are sort of in the middle, being moderate light requiring.  
You may find some plants do well, others don't, over time.  I have tried many plants, but after many years I stay with the ones that grow well in my situation.  You also have to deal with the acclimating period that plants go through, as another member mentioned, and the instability of a new tank.
 
I would get a timer for the lights.  Plants have a biological rhythm, just as all fish and animals have, and plants will be better with a stable period of light/dark every 24 hours.  The period of light can vary, from around six hours to more, remembering that algae will take advantage of any excess light/nutrients beyond what the plants need/use.  I tend to use algae to sort this out; my tank lighting are now "on" for 8 hours each day (one tank is only 7 hours) because beyond this brush algae increases.  It is also important to keep the same schedule, so the 8 hours occur at the same time each 24-hour period.  Ambient light in the room, from windows and night lighting, also enters this equation.
 
So at this point, I would dose Flourish Comprehensive maybe twice a week, but be prepared to cut back to once.  The day following the water change does seem to work better, then 3 days after that if the second dose is used.  Do not be too thorough in cleaning into the substrate during water changes, as this is where the organics build up to provide essential CO2 and other nutrients.  Put the light on a timer, start with maybe 7-8 hours; this can be any time of the day, just so long as it is consistent and you have a comparable period of complete and total darkness in the room.  This full night is essential for plants and fish.
 
Give this a few weeks, then it can be adjusted (the lighting duration, or the fertilizer) if necessary.  It takes a few weeks for any changes to be noticeable in plants, and keep in mind that some may do well and others not.  I cannot grow Cabomba at all, but my swords are thriving like weeds.
 
Byron.
Thanks Byron.
I'll put a timer in and do 6hrs a day.
I'll dose my Flourish as per the instructions then and keep an eye on the shrimps....
 
You said my lights are a bit bright, I could get another 'Nature' light which is only about $5 so then its 2x 4100K lights.
 
MY plant choices was actually from forums and websites which suggested these as 'beginner' plants.
I'll see what they do over the next couple of weeks and if the Bacopa melts more, I'll just remove it.
 
MY Kabomba is actually the one doing the best I think, at least its not dying but I'm most stumped by the melting Anubias Nana though. 
I thought they were the hardiest plants.....grows in water or emersed.
 
for my aquarium I use Seachem Flourish plus Seachem nitrogen.  That combination adds all the nutrients a aquarium needs except phosphorous (which my test kit indicated was high)  That got my phosphate levels down and gave me consistent plant growth and solved may algae problem.  My plants would probably grow better with a little bit more phosphorous what I have now is working very well right now.
 
As byron said the watts per gallon rule doesn't work well for starters watts is how much energy the lights are using which the plants don't care about.  Plants want light sufficiently bright to meet there growth needs.  I have been using the Lumens per squar inch guide.   Basically you determine the surface area of your tank and then determine how bright your lights are (typically they have a lumen rating or in some cases PAR or candle rating.  The guides I have seen indicate about one lumen per squar inch is for low light while about 2 lumen per square inch is for medium, while 3 or more is for bright light.  This rule doesn't care about the type of light you have and will give you equivalent lighting from tank to tank as long as the tanks are no more than about 20 inches deap (deaper tanks will need even more light).  In addition to adding nutrients I adjusted my lighting to about 2.4 lumens per squar inch and adjusted how long the lights were one to get the result i wanted.  In my case that worked out to about 12 hours of light per day.  
 
http://fotohobbist.com/blog/aquarium-lighting-for-planted-aquariums/#more-136
 
Byron said:
First off, your lighting is on the bright side, as it is T5 (I am assuming the "HiLite" is HO meaning High Output, the wattage would suggest this) so it is not that you don't have sufficient over this tank.  Watts per gallon is generally useless, with today's more efficient lighting.  This formula sort of worked back in the days when the fluorescent we used was all T12, but T8 which replaced it uses less energy for the same or even more intensity, and T5 is more intense still.  Then there is LED.
 
Second, this light is what drives photosynthesis, but the plants need nutrients to achieve this, and they are probably minimal or lacking in some cases.  Once a tank becomes established (after a few months), organics build up in the substrate and thus nutrients increase...primarily CO2 but others too.  I would use the Flourish Comprehensive Supplement for the Planted Aquarium (to give it it's complete name, as Seachem make several different products in this line), once a week on the day following the water change.  For a 33g tank, I would use 1/2 teaspoon per dose (this is according to their directions).  You can dose it a second time, after 3-4 days.  I sometimes do this initially, then cut back once the system stabilizes; too much fertilizer can cause algae, just as too little can, or too much or too little light--everything has to be in balance.
 
Third, you have plants with very different requirements in terms of light and nutrients.  Cabomba is high light and thus more nutrients (to balance), whereas Java Moss and Java Fern are low light (and thus fewer nutrients necessary).  Swords are sort of in the middle, being moderate light requiring.  
You may find some plants do well, others don't, over time.  I have tried many plants, but after many years I stay with the ones that grow well in my situation.  You also have to deal with the acclimating period that plants go through, as another member mentioned, and the instability of a new tank.
 
I would get a timer for the lights.  Plants have a biological rhythm, just as all fish and animals have, and plants will be better with a stable period of light/dark every 24 hours.  The period of light can vary, from around six hours to more, remembering that algae will take advantage of any excess light/nutrients beyond what the plants need/use.  I tend to use algae to sort this out; my tank lighting are now "on" for 8 hours each day (one tank is only 7 hours) because beyond this brush algae increases.  It is also important to keep the same schedule, so the 8 hours occur at the same time each 24-hour period.  Ambient light in the room, from windows and night lighting, also enters this equation.
 
So at this point, I would dose Flourish Comprehensive maybe twice a week, but be prepared to cut back to once.  The day following the water change does seem to work better, then 3 days after that if the second dose is used.  Do not be too thorough in cleaning into the substrate during water changes, as this is where the organics build up to provide essential CO2 and other nutrients.  Put the light on a timer, start with maybe 7-8 hours; this can be any time of the day, just so long as it is consistent and you have a comparable period of complete and total darkness in the room.  This full night is essential for plants and fish.
 
Give this a few weeks, then it can be adjusted (the lighting duration, or the fertilizer) if necessary.  It takes a few weeks for any changes to be noticeable in plants, and keep in mind that some may do well and others not.  I cannot grow Cabomba at all, but my swords are thriving like weeds.
 
Byron.
I am curious, why dose the day after a water change as opposed to right after the water change?
 
I am curious, why dose the day after a water change as opposed to right after the water change?
 
 
I deliberately didn't go into this previously, as it would have lengthened the post even more and was not directly related.  And I expected someone to ask...so now I will explain.
 
Most water conditioners detoxify heavy metals.  These are substances such as copper, zinc, iron, manganese, mercury. lead and several others.  Some of these are essential plant mineral nutrients, though they are toxic at high levels (for animals including humans as well as fish and plants).  The level of these substances in tap water is going to be no higher than what the law allows, but this can still be problematic.  For instance, copper at levels safe for humans will kill fish quickly.  So most conditioners detoxify heavy metals.
 
Conditioners are intended to deal with levels encountered in tap water, which as I mentioned above are usually subject to laws, so they are not that high to begin with.  I asked Seachem (the manufacturer of Prime conditioner which is one that detoxifies heavy metals, and the Flourish line of fertilizers) about the interaction of Prime and Flourish Comprehensive (which contains the plant micro-nutrients like copper, manganese, zinc, iron), and they responded that Prime would detoxify the heavy metal nutrients in Flourish Comprehensive, making these inaccessible to plants, so it was best to wait 24-36 hours after using Prime before adding Flourish Comprehensive.  This is because Prime becomes ineffective after this period.
 
I do not use Prime, but the API Tap Water Conditioner which also detoxifies metals, so I started following this advice of waiting 24 hours before using any fertilizers.  I cannot say that the plants definitely improved from doing this, but i certainly can say it did not have any adverse effects.  I've made some other changes over time and it is not easy to attribute this or that to improved growth, or less algae, so since i did not see any adverse reaction, I took Seachem at their word (which does make sense anyway, that a detoxifier would negate these minerals) and do not use any plant additives on the day of a water change.  This may actually have something of a benefit to the fish, though I have no evidence either way.
 
Another related issue is spreading the dose out over several days.  In my largest tanks which would take say 2 teaspoons of flourish Comprehensive per week, I have divided this in half, dosing 1 teaspoon the day following the water change, and the second teaspoon three or four days after that, and I will say that this does seem to have worked better.  The plants are doing well, but algae seems to have been thwarted a bit by doing this.  I also use Flourish Trace and Flourish Iron, and reducing the Comprehensive even further while using the Trace spread out over the week has been beneficial.
 
Byron. 
 
Thanks Byron.
I'll put a timer in and do 6hrs a day.
I'll dose my Flourish as per the instructions then and keep an eye on the shrimps....
 
Provided you do not exceed the recommended dose levels, the copper in Flourish Comp is so minimal it will not harm invertebrates.  The copper occurring in some tap water is more likely to cause issues even for fish, as the "safe" level for humans is higher than for fish.
 
You said my lights are a bit bright, I could get another 'Nature' light which is only about $5 so then its 2x 4100K lights.
 
 
StevenF has gone into this, but I will just briefly add that Kelvin (the 4100K) is the measurement unit for the colour temperature of light.  The "warmer" the light, meaning more red and less blue, the lower the Kelvin rating, whereas the higher the K the less red and more blue creating "cooler" light.  It has nothing to do with intensity, though the K is important.
 
Aquatic plants need red and blue light to drive photosynthesis.  Studies have shown that adding green to this mix does benefit, even though it is not a major photosynthetic colour for aquatic plants.  The "daylight" tubes with a Kelvin between 5000K and 7000K generally fit the bill here.  My single tube tanks have 6500K tubes, while on my dual tube tanks I use one 6500K and one 5000K.  The 5000K is a tad warmer (more red) and I personally find this nice.  So if you want to replace the 8000K, find one with around 6500K.  I wouldn't mess with the 4100K provided you have as the second tube one with more of the blue in it.
 
MY plant choices was actually from forums and websites which suggested these as 'beginner' plants.
I'll see what they do over the next couple of weeks and if the Bacopa melts more, I'll just remove it.
 
MY Kabomba is actually the one doing the best I think, at least its not dying but I'm most stumped by the melting Anubias Nana though. 
I thought they were the hardiest plants.....grows in water or emersed.
 
 
Several issues in this.  I'll start with the emersed/submersed growth of plants.  Many of our popular aquarium plants are marsh or bog plants, that grow emersed (leaves above water but roots in very wet soil/sand) part or all of the year, but may also grow fully submersed for part of the year, or can do so permanently.  Swords (Echinodorus species, and the dwarf chain swords in Helanthium), many crypts, Anubias, Java Fern, and even some stem plants are such plants naturally.  Fortunately, they take to fully submersed cultivation well, so they make good aquarium plants.  Usually most will not flower unless grown emersed for roughly half the year, though Anubias is an exception as it does sometimes flower submersed.
 
The Cabomba is likely doing well, so far, due to the brighter light.  I have moderate light, and I have tried this plant several times but after a couple months it just slowly falls apart, primarily due to the light, though undoubtedly nutrient issues factor in.
 
The Anubias is a low-light plant as I mentioned previously, and thus requires less nutrients to balance.  I have found that Anubias and Java Fern do not do well in direct lighting, though this can manifest itself by first (usually) increased brush algae, then yellowing leaves.  A shade from floating plants may help.  But again, the issue of adjusting to a new environment from previously is also a factor in most plants.  Your light may be different, as may the water parameters (GH and pH), or temperature, or nutrient availability...all this is part of the equation.  One crucial concept of an aquarium that is generally not fully understood or recognized especially by new aquarists is the incredibly close relationship of fish and plants to the water; this relationship is by far more important than air to terrestrial plants and animals, because of the nature of the aquatic environment, so moving a fish or plant from one tank to another may have very significant consequences.  I could write a whole article on this, so I'll move on.
 
Generally speaking, stem plants are faster growing so they will always need more light (intensity, not duration) and more nutrients that plants that grow slower.  Floating plants are all fast growing, because they have adapted to being closer to more intense lighting (even in nature, light does not have to penetrate water to reach floating plants), plus they have the aerial advantage of taking in CO2 directly from air, which is about four times faster than assimilating CO2 from water.  Liquid fertilization thus benefits floating plants, and stem plants too.
 
Sword plants are moderate to fast growing plants, but not as fast as the afore-mentioned.  So these generally do well with less lighting (intensity again, not duration) than what stem plants need.
 
Light intensity matters.  Light travels through air very fast, compared to water.  Blue light penetrates water deeper (this is why the oceans appear blue, and high blue actinic lighting is needed for corals and marine tanks), but freshwater plants also need red light.  But light weakens significantly as it penetrates water.
 
But the fish must be considered too.  Forest fish, which covers nearly all the freshwater fish we keep in tropical aquaria, do not appreciate overhead lighting.  Floating plants will always benefit fish, so i would recommend using them.  All of my tanks have floating plants, most of them fairly thick too.  The other benefit is this will somewhat reduce the light entering the tank, which can be a benefit with stronger lighting.
 
As a last thought...I mentioned "intensity not duration" a couple times above.  Duration cannot make up for intensity issues.  If the light is not strong enough to drive photosynthesis (which differs in every plant species), increasing the duration will not compensate but only cause algae.
 
Byron.
 
thanks for the info guys.
 
Most of my Anubias Nana have all melted. Maybe I propagated them wrongly too.
 
Following your suggestions:
 
1) I'll use the Flourish as per the dosage
2) grab a timer for the lights to allow at least 6hrs of regular lighting.
3) I'll see if there is another 'lower' Kevin tube available....Juwel only make 4, Daylight (8000K/1600Lumen), Colour (6400K/1700Lumen), Nature (4100K/1800Lumen) and Blue (500Lumen)
 
I did the Lumen maths too, 3400Lumen over 434 sq inch surface= 8 LSI......not accounting for depth of tank
 
Since I haven't gone down the CO2 method, should I consider Flourish Iron or even Flourish Excel? 
 
boshk said:
thanks for the info guys.
 
Most of my Anubias Nana have all melted. Maybe I propagated them wrongly too.
 
Following your suggestions:
 
1) I'll use the Flourish as per the dosage
2) grab a timer for the lights to allow at least 6hrs of regular lighting.
3) I'll see if there is another 'lower' Kevin tube available....Juwel only make 4, Daylight (8000K/1600Lumen), Colour (6400K/1700Lumen), Nature (4100K/1800Lumen) and Blue (500Lumen)
 
Since I haven't gone down the CO2 method, should I consider Flourish Iron or even Flourish Excel? 
 
First on the tubes, the one described as "Colour" is 6400K so that is ideal.  This one along with the Nature 4100K you have should provide nice light as far as spectrum.  The plants will have more use, and there is less likely to be algae issues.
 
On the Flourish fertilizers.  Iron is a micro-nutrient, and is included in Flourish Comprehensive.  I experimented a bit, and have found that reducing my doses of Flourish Comp from twice weekly to once, and replacing the second dose with a single dose of Flourish Iron and Flourish Trace eliminated my brush algae issues in a couple of my tanks but seemed to provide good nutrients for the plants.  You might want to look into Flourish Trace; this is primarily the micro-nutrients though iron they leave out and you have to buy it separately.  I got the iron primarily for my tank with the red tiger lotus and the crypts, and I believe it helped.  I am now using it in my two tanks with swords, and I think it is adding something, rather hard to say exactly, but I do know that my brush algae has not increased like it did both times I tried two doses of Flourish Comp alone.  The Flourish Trace is certainly worth getting, I definitely saw improvements with this, esp my floating plants.
 
Now, the Excel will never recommend.  This is comprised of glutaraldehyde and water.  Glutaraldehyde is a very toxic disinfectant.  Even when used at the recommended dose on the label, it will kill some plants, Vallisneria is one (all species in the genus), and some aquarists have found mosses affected.  If it should get overdosed, it can kill other plants, bacteria and fish.  I personally will not use such dangerous products in a tank with fish.  I know not everyone agrees with me, and that is fine.  But everything added to the water will get inside the fish, and I see no sense in risking fish with such a dangerous toxin.
 
Excel is a liquid carbon supplement, or intended as such.  Once the aquarium is established, there will be a fair bit of CO2 naturally occurring from the respiration of fish, bacteria and plants, but more from the decomposition of organics in the substrate--this goes back to my previous comments on not being too thorough in cleaning the substrate in planted tanks...this is your major source of CO2.  The only plant you have so far that might be improved with diffused CO2 is the Cabomba.  But I personally would not mess around with this for just one plant, lovely as it is.  I have tanks of plants including swords, cyrpts, Java Fern & Moss, tiger lotus, aponogeton, pennywort, and several floating species, and I have never bothered with diffused CO2.  Now, balancing the light intensity is a part of this, but something I will stay out of for the moment.
 
Byron.
 
Some good information here.
I agree with Byron about dosing iron with the red plants. Crypts, Tiger Lotus, et cetera.
I am also not so fond of the watts per gallon/lite rule. In my experience the color spectrum is more important. Plants 'see' in almost the opposite spectrum we do.
As for melting, Byron may have hit on the Anubius,for the Bacopa, it may just be transitioning to submeresed growth.
I agree as well with spacing out doses of ferts. Only so much can't be taken up at once. Kind of like a daily multi-vitamin, taking a weeks dose at once doesn't do as much good as once a day.
Also Swords are heavy root feeders, so root tabs wouldn't hurt. As well, once Amazon Swords get established expect massive root growth.
 

Most reactions

Back
Top