Start Up Advice

[VampyreVenom]

Evening all,

My housemate (Pete) and I have just set up our tanks. We have live plants, including floating, and the substrate is a mix of aquatic soil and white sand. Pete's tank is 22 l set up including lights, heater and filter which he intends to keep a betta in. My own tank is 20 l with an oversized internal filter, heater and a small LED light strip. I was originally intending to have a small community tank with a variety of tetras and livebearers, but having done some research I now realise that it isn't suitable. The tank is several years old, having previously been used for robo fish, so there is no chance of returning it and we have nowhere for a larger tank. I would still like to have a community tank and would like some advice as to what would be suitable for my small tank.

According to Southern water, my tap water is pumped from Wierwood Resevoir and Western Rother River and contains 65.6 mg/l Ca, 164 mg/l CaCO3, 16.4 degrees French, 91 degrees German and 11.48 degrees Clarke. Testing one of the tanks, NO3 is at 100 mg/l, NO2 at 0, GH is > 14 degrees d, KH is 15 degrees d, PH is about 7.6 and Cl2 is at 0.

I'm sure this has probably been asked hundreds of times, but I couldn't see anything for a tank as small as mine in the first few pages of the forum. I would also appreciate any additional advice, we have treated both tanks with water conditioner.

Thank you all in advance for your help.

 

[Wills]

Hi welcome to the forum

I'm not really sure what to suggest in a tank this small, maybe some kind of dwarf shrimp? Maybe a pair or trio of Pyjama Badis or Scarlet Badis but thats still not perfect but could work?

What are the dimensions of the tank? Do you not have space for something like a 50 litre tank? That would give you many more options and the footprint might not be that much bigger.

Before you get any fish or shrimp though you should look at this section of the forum

http://www.fishforums.net/threads/beginners-resource-center.277264/

I would recommend reading the fishless cycling article and get your selves an API liquid test kit from here https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B000255NCI/?tag=

Then once you have got your ammonia from somewhere like Homebase get your cycles started without adding fish and you should be off to a good start

I really would think about getting a bigger tank though

Wills

 

[fozziebear]

Shrimp would be a good choice, a single dwarf puffer but not with the shrimp (maybe a pair if you had very heavy planting) and malaysian trumpet snails would work too.

 

[TekFish]

Elassoma sp. if you can find any. Failing that, Scarlet Badis are nice. Also, Clown Killifish are attractive and interesting fish.

 

[VampyreVenom]

Thank you TekFish, I like the look of Elassoma gilberti as well as scarlet badis and clown killifish, so I'll see if I can find any once the tank is cycled.

I'm trying to find the ammonia but Homebase doesn't seem to stock it and neither do any B&Q stores within about 20 miles, I have found some household ammonia on Amazon but not sure if it's suitable. We did ask about ammonia in our LFS but they didn't know where we would find any but did suggest producing ammonia by adding something meaty that would rot down (eg prawns) to produce ammonia that way, has anyone tried this way?

We would like to get a bigger tank but don't have anywhere to put a cabinet or anything that would support anything heavier than we currently have. The dimensions for the current tank external measurements (cm) are 28.2 h, 35.2 l, 21.6 w. I did have an idea for a bit of reorganisation but will take a lot of work and won't free up floor space so I would have to work out whether the alternative would support more weight or not, if it would I'll let you know but if not I'll pretend as though I didn't say anything

 

[Byron]

Thank you TekFish, I like the look of Elassoma gilberti as well as scarlet badis and clown killifish, so I'll see if I can find any once the tank is cycled.

I'm trying to find the ammonia but Homebase doesn't seem to stock it and neither do any B&Q stores within about 20 miles, I have found some household ammonia on Amazon but not sure if it's suitable. We did ask about ammonia in our LFS but they didn't know where we would find any but did suggest producing ammonia by adding something meaty that would rot down (eg prawns) to produce ammonia that way, has anyone tried this way

You mention having live plants in post #1, and floating plants at that, so you can forget any cycling with ammonia, etc. You might even kill the plants. Plants need nitrogen, and aquarium plants prefer ammonium (ammonia) as their form of nitrogen so they take up a fair bit, certainly what a fish or shrimp can produce in a small tank. Provided the plants are obviously growing, you're OK.

You have moderately hard water, so keep that in mind when considering suitable fish. Small species tend to be wild caught and have fairly specific preferences.

And on the GH, the test numbers in post #1 indicate the source water GH has doubled in the aquarium. This means something in the tank is dissolving mineral into the water. Perhaps the substrate?

 

[fozziebear]

You mention having live plants in post #1, and floating plants at that, so you can forget any cycling with ammonia, etc. You might even kill the plants. Plants need nitrogen, and aquarium plants prefer ammonium (ammonia) as their form of nitrogen so they take up a fair bit, certainly what a fish or shrimp can produce in a small tank. Provided the plants are obviously growing, you're OK.

I would disagree with this, myself and multiple others i know have used ammonia cycling in fully planted tanks (65-80% of substrate planted from day 1) with great success.

there is a whole debate going on at the moment in planted circles as to wether a cycling process is even needed with heavier planting levels as the plants will deal with a lot of what the fish produce, however i disagree with this as i don't think healthy plants are enough and you still need to form beneficial bacteria colonies in your substrate and filter systems.

 

[Byron]

I would disagree with this, myself and multiple others i know have used ammonia cycling in fully planted tanks (65-80% of substrate planted from day 1) with great success.

You need to more carefully read my posts, though I admit sometimes cutting corners and causing uncertainty perhaps. Anyway, I did not say using ammonia would kill the plants, I said it could, and that is true. One can easily overdose pure ammonia, killing the bacteria as well as plants. While live plants, depending upon species and numbers, might be able to handle pure ammonia, it is a risk best avoided.

there is a whole debate going on at the moment in planted circles as to wether a cycling process is even needed with heavier planting levels as the plants will deal with a lot of what the fish produce, however i disagree with this as i don't think healthy plants are enough and you still need to form beneficial bacteria colonies in your substrate and filter systems.

Again, misunderstanding, but not only me, obviously of the process you refer to as the "debate." I have no problem explaining.

The various bacteria will still establish; this is a fact of science. Nitrosomonas sp. and (probably) Nitrospira sp. in freshwater aquaria, once ammonia is present. When plants are present, they will take up ammonia faster than the Nitrosomonas sp. bacteria, with the added advantage that their assimilation of ammonia/ammonium does not result in nitrite. The amount of ammonia taken up is considerable, certainly whatever is produced by a reasonable fish population. Some still gets past the plants, hence the establishment of the bacteria. But the latter levels of nitrite will be so low as to be undetectable with aquarium tests, and thus harmless to fish. So the end result is a "silent" cycle as some like to term it, since it occurs undetected by the aquarist.

Since live plants assimilate ammonia faster than the nitrifying bacteria, always depending upon species and numbers and fish load, your attempts to "cycle" a new tank with plants present will probably not be much. You could of course do the "cycle" before adding any plants. Then when the plants are added, they will take up the ammonia, leaving the bacteria without food. All of which makes me wonder why one would want to bog down the process for no good reason?

If there are some fast growing plants present, and floating plants are ideal for this--they are often termed "ammonia sinks" for very good reason--and the fish load is slowly increased, nothing can go wrong and fish can be in the tank from the first. I've always used this method, in 25 years I have never "cycled" a tank.

 

[fozziebear]

Very informative post byron, these are some of the threads i have been reading on the subject at hand, i have to say my opinion seems to flip flop on this.. as from personal experience i have never added raw ammonia to a tank, i have either cycled with ADA aquasoil which leeches ammonia, or my own pee.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/filter-cycling.52265/page-2#post-514903

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41965

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41038

http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829

 

[Byron]

Very informative post byron, these are some of the threads i have been reading on the subject at hand, i have to say my opinion seems to flip flop on this.. as from personal experience i have never added raw ammonia to a tank, i have either cycled with ADA aquasoil which leeches ammonia, or my own pee.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/filter-cycling.52265/page-2#post-514903

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41965

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41038

http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829

I read the first thread, and skimmed through the other links. I don't think there is anything that disagrees with what I posted previously, so will leave it at that.

The soil/ammonia issue was raised, and this is my issue with any such product, the risk of killing fish during the first 5-6 months due to the excessive ammonia which can be beyond the ability of the plants to handle.

And I spotted my old friend TwoTankAmin, someone I highly respect for his extensive knowledge of the chemistry side. He is not active here presently, but reads threads and I can always count on an email if I venture off course in the chemistry/bacteria area.

 

[VampyreVenom]

We tested the tank previously tested last night, which seemed to have increased GH even more, yet my tank read at >7 which confused considerably as they are similar set ups. Whilst at work I devised a plan of action which included testing the substrates, I ended up not testing the soil as the sand, which is present in both tanks just in differing amounts, fizzed with the vinegar. Love Fish brand aquarium sand apparently dissolves minerals into your tank water, although Pete did want to test the tank again and this time it seems to be going back down which has just confused us even more. We did test washed and unwashed substrate, the washed seemed to fizz a little less so could it be that it's not the substrate itself but something else in the bag that's wearing off and the filters slowly taking it out or is that just wishful thinking?

 

[Byron]

We tested the tank previously tested last night, which seemed to have increased GH even more, yet my tank read at >7 which confused considerably as they are similar set ups. Whilst at work I devised a plan of action which included testing the substrates, I ended up not testing the soil as the sand, which is present in both tanks just in differing amounts, fizzed with the vinegar. Love Fish brand aquarium sand apparently dissolves minerals into your tank water, although Pete did want to test the tank again and this time it seems to be going back down which has just confused us even more. We did test washed and unwashed substrate, the washed seemed to fizz a little less so could it be that it's not the substrate itself but something else in the bag that's wearing off and the filters slowly taking it out or is that just wishful thinking?

Your last sentence seems unlikely, so yes, wishful thinking. There are two issues here concerning the substrate.

A significant issue with any non-inert substrate is what it may do with respect to the water chemistry, and the fact that it can be fluctuating which is even worse for fish. I would certainly not add any fish to these tanks until you have sorted this out. And that may mean pulling out the substrate in its entirety and using inert sand (play sand is ideal for aquariums).

The enriched plant "soil" substrate material is one problem, and that might work itself out over several months. When using any form of soil, there is a period of up to six months when the ammonia and CO2 released can be volatile and extremely serious. This is why most sources suggest a "dry" start with no fish for six months.

The "sand" seems to be calcareous, which would be fine on its own in a tank with fish that require harder water. But not fish that are soft water species, which ironically is the majority of "nano" species that otherwise suit smaller tanks.

When fish are intended in an aquarium (as opposed to plants only with perhaps shrimp and/or snails) the so-called plant enriched substrates tend to be more trouble than their benefit, which itself is minimal. Plants will grow just as well in an inert substrate of sand (or fine gravel in that aquascape). And the other problem is that the smaller the tank the more volatile the chemistry can be, so this only makes things more unreliable. And of course, all of this is a significant issue for any fish, as their physiology is very closely tied to their aquatic environment much more than any terrestrial animal (aside perhaps from amphibians).

 

[Chief Brody]

Shrimp would be a good choice, a single dwarf puffer but not with the shrimp (maybe a pair if you had very heavy planting) and malaysian trumpet snails would work too.

Malaysian trumpet snails aren't really anything. They clean the substrate but I wouldn't set up a tank just for them. Seems like a waste of effort/time/resources. I grow them in a bucket with no filter. The smaller a tank is the more of a challenge it'll be to find balance. Small/nano tanks are very sensitive and spike easily. Maybe a nano sump sytem could give you more water volume and allow for a heavier bio-load. A sump can be anything and kept out of sight, so a plastic storage container/tote/bin or a large bucket - whatever. A breeding colony of shrimp would be a great secondary food source for some dwarf puffers.

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

 

[Chief Brody]

Very informative post byron, these are some of the threads i have been reading on the subject at hand, i have to say my opinion seems to flip flop on this.. as from personal experience i have never added raw ammonia to a tank, i have either cycled with ADA aquasoil which leeches ammonia, or my own pee.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/filter-cycling.52265/page-2#post-514903

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41965

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=41038

http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=829

Definitely convenient having the tank right there instead of having to go all the way to the bathroom. I actually took a dump in there a few times

Sent from my SM-G730V using Tapatalk

 

[seangee]

Shrimp would be a good choice, a single dwarf puffer but not with the shrimp (maybe a pair if you had very heavy planting) and malaysian trumpet snails would work too.

Can't say from experience but I am thinking about setting up a tank with Dwarf Puffers. From what I have read malaysian trumpet snails are not a good idea because their shells are too hard and could damage the puffer's teeth