Sponge Filter Question

[kiriyama]

Hi picked up this spone filter today, wasn't until I got back home I noticed there was no top tube (chimney) with it (see bottom pic.) is it ok to run it like this or does it need the chimney to help the way it works..

Without

With

Any feedback appreciated

 

[KittyKat]

It should be fine, although will probably work better with.

 

[Tolak]

I've run them without, the uplift tube gives increased flow rates if you run a lot of air.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I totally disagree.

The way a sponge filter works is the air bubbles that move through the uplift tube pull water along with them. This is what creates the flow. The water that moves up the tube with the air is replaced by water being pulled through the sponge. No tube = no uplift flow = no filtering.

You can buy a replacement tube for very little.

 

[KittyKat]

I totally disagree.

The way a sponge filter works is the air bubbles that move through the uplift tube pull water along with them. This is what creates the flow. The water that moves up the tube with the air is replaced by water being pulled through the sponge. No tube = no uplift flow = no filtering.

You can buy a replacement tube for very little.

(Of course, the filter still has the part of the tube which is inside it!)

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Do you mean the skeleton that prevents the sponge from collapsing on itself?? That does nothing for the flow. It is the clear plastic tube as pictured above which is essential to make a sponge work with air power.

[font="Arial][size="2"]When your Sponge Filter is attached to an air pump, the rising column of air in the tube pulls water with it. A larger lift tube allows for a higher flow rate (this is where Hydro Sponge filters excel).[/size][/font]
[font="Arial][size="2"]You can measure the water flow (which can be useful to know) by slightly tilting the filter with the top of the outflow just above the aquarium water line and timing the fill rate into a pitcher or gallon jug. If it fills the jug in 30 seconds, you multiply 2 times per minute times 60 or 120 gallons per hour.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial][size="2"]You can also add an air stone to the end of your tubing in the outflow tube to produce more bubbles and more lift.[/size][/font]

More info from where I took this can be found at Sponge Filtration Overview

ps I run 6 air powered sponges and another 5 powerhead driven

 

[Tolak]

That site, which is a sales site, does not mention or seem to carry the H-0;

It's a stubby sawed off one, great for really small tanks, or situations where you want to drop the water level. It has practically no uplift tube to speak of, may as well have none at all.

Sponge filters are low flow bio filters, use them for what they excel at. I have run them without the uplift tube in dropped water level situations, there is enough flow to run them for what they do best, bio filtration. This does make me wonder how many I am running ATM, as I do run multiples & spares. Guess I can count them up when I feed fish in a bit.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

First, the site was not linked to because they sell anything. It was used because finding good illustrations of how and why sponge filters work is not so easy. But I found another Sponge or Breeder Filters

Second, sponge filter are also excellent mechanical filtration, they are not solely for bio. Because they are good mech filters you must rinse them out weekly to prevent their clogging and thus reducing their bio filteration capability. And some sponge filters also allow for the addition of a carbon insert which is a form of chemical filtration although this is not their strong point. Can you please post a link to any site that says sponges are only for bio?

Third, one should use an uplift tube despite your opinion to the contrary. If this were not the proper way to operate them why does every manufacturer of them include the uplift tube?

Fourth, your picture does include the HO- it is the sponge on the far left- they are just not included in the bulk purchase discount offer. Go here and you will see the same picture but with the model numbers listed under them. Jehmco

Fifth, I have surfed through about a dozen sites with sponge filter info- not one suggests a sponge filter can or should be used without an uplift tube. I know folks running large systems with 100s of sponge filters and not one runs them without an uplift tube or has ever suggested doing so. You are the first fishkeeper I have run across either in person or online who has said an uplift tube is superfluous to the proper functioning of a sponge filter? Could you perhaps provide links to sites that do?

 

[kiriyama]

Ahem, took it back to LFS today, swapped it for all this

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Great

 

[Tolak]

First, the site was not linked to because they sell anything. It was used because finding good illustrations of how and why sponge filters work is not so easy. But I found another Sponge or Breeder Filters

They sell the Hydro line, they are going to sing its praises. Can’t blame them, I’d do the same if I were selling them.

Second, sponge filter are also excellent mechanical filtration, they are not solely for bio. Because they are good mech filters you must rinse them out weekly to prevent their clogging and thus reducing their bio filteration capability. And some sponge filters also allow for the addition of a carbon insert which is a form of chemical filtration although this is not their strong point. Can you please post a link to any site that says sponges are only for bio?

I never stated that they were only for bio, I stated that they excel at bio filtration. I also stated that you should use them for what they excel at. Per the site you linked to;

“As well Sponge filters perform mechanical filtration (removal of debris), however this is this is not their primary strength (biological filtration is their strength), which is why the best filtration would be a combination of a sponge filter and a HOB (power filter)”

Third, one should use an uplift tube despite your opinion to the contrary. If this were not the proper way to operate them why does every manufacturer of them include the uplift tube?

I never stated that you shouldn’t, I said that I have, and you can.

Fourth, your picture does include the HO- it is the sponge on the far left- they are just not included in the bulk purchase discount offer. Go here and you will see the same picture but with the model numbers listed under them. Jehmco

I realize what the picture shows, and that is why I posted it, as it does show a sponge filter sold with a considerably shorter uplift tube. I also know where that picture is from; they have seen plenty of my money pass their way.

Fifth, I have surfed through about a dozen sites with sponge filter info- not one suggests a sponge filter can or should be used without an uplift tube. I know folks running large systems with 100s of sponge filters and not one runs them without an uplift tube or has ever suggested doing so. You are the first fishkeeper I have run across either in person or online who has said an uplift tube is superfluous to the proper functioning of a sponge filter? Could you perhaps provide links to sites that do?

I never stated that the uplift tube was unneeded, and I did state, as in a dropped water situation which would most likely be included in a breeding attempt, that they will function without the uplift tube. Here’s a link to an article that has been around for years, it will explain why you might want that low of a water level; http/www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/adolfsson_dry%20and%20rainy%20seasons.html

I could make a website that says the moon is made of green cheese, and that Hydro sponge filters run best with no uplift tube and run upside down. That wouldn’t make either one a fact. What is a fact is that the Hydros, with the removable uplift tube, make them ideally suited for those lower water level situations.

I did count sponge filters running in my setup this evening when I went around feeding; 38. I’ve got half a dozen tanks shut down ATM, those don’t count as running. Some of those sponge filters are Hydros, some are made by other folks, the most durable are the ones I’ve made myself;

The issues I have with the Hydros are that they are not cichlid proof when dealing with larger fish, and the rate at which that foam, which only comes in a very high ppi deteriorates. You can make a more durable filter, and one more suited to your purposes with PVC, and foam with a ppi more suited to your need.

If you check out some of the products found here; http/www.swisstropicals.com/Poret%20Filter%20Foam.html you will see that there is a range of foam from very coarse, which would work ideal with a powerhead/sponge setup, to very fine, which would be best suited for the smallest fry. Personally for my setup, which is mainly air driven filtration, the sponges are set up for lower flow bio filtration, and large box filters are set up for higher flow mechanical filtration. While I mainly run floss in the boxes at times I will run peat, something that is difficult to do with sponge filters. Since we mentioned Jehmco, they do have the large LJRBF box filters on sale; http/www.jehmco.com/html/box_filters.html

These are the best I have found so far, as they have a large enough capacity to run things such as peat along with floss in a large enough quantity for larger tanks.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

They sell the Hydro line, they are going to sing its praises. Can't blame them, I'd do the same if I were selling them.

The thing is I stated I posted the link for the illustration they have of the flow through/operation of a sponge filter and not because they sell anything. Please show me where I endorsed or even suggested any brand in any of my posts in this thread.

I never stated that they were only for bio, I stated that they excel at bio filtration. I also stated that you should use them for what they excel at. Per the site you linked to;

Umm- let me see- when I linked to the site for the technical explanation and illustrations there you poo pooed that because they sell the Hydro line and then you counter by quoting from the exact same site to make your point? So when I link the info is not good but when you do it becomes good? I am confused.

I would also not agree they are primarily or best as a bio filter, imo they work equally well for mechanical. This is especially true the more porus the sponge is. I know when I rinse mine out every week I sure rinse out a lot of mech waste. As much or more than I get out of the sponges run in my AquaClears. In uncycled tanks where I have hatched out eggs or used as a temporary H tank, I frequently use a sponge filter to suck up waste and help with gas exchange to keep the water well oxygenated. The sponges are not cycled and sometimes thrown out afterwards in the case of H tank use. I use the small sponge because an airstone wont help keep the tank clean the way a sponge can.

I never stated that you shouldn't, I said that I have, and you can.

That proves nothing except you can remove an uplift tube and the bubbling will still continue. It does not prove that the filter is actually working as designed. Because the sponge is filled with bacteria ad because there is the equivalent of an airstone running, there is circulation in the tank. That circulation will provide some nutrients and O to the bacteria on the outer parts of the sponge. My bet is if you removed the sponge from the frame and just put it into the tank and then put an airstone in as well, the results would be close to, if not, identical.

That site, which is a sales site, does not mention or seem to carry the H-0;

To which I replied by showing that the picture does indeed show the H-0 you said did not appear.

I realize what the picture shows, and that is why I posted it, as it does show a sponge filter sold with a considerably shorter uplift tube. I also know where that picture is from; they have seen plenty of my money pass their way.

Pardon me, but the filter on the left end of my clarifying link illustration is the H-0 and labelled as such. It is not just some "sponge with a shorter uplift tube". You are saying you have shopped there and possibly bought sponges there and you know what the picture shows, yet you still claim that the H-0 is not pictured? I am confused.

I never stated that the uplift tube was unneeded, and I did state, as in a dropped water situation which would most likely be included in a breeding attempt, that they will function without the uplift tube. Here's a link to an article that has been around for years, it will explain why you might want that low of a water level; http/www.aquarticl...%20seasons.html

Nice article, however it does not mention anything about using a sponge filter without the uplift tube in fact I do not think the word sponge appears anywhere in that article. What I have seen is there are sponges specifically designed for use in lowered water level applications. Instead of being a drum shaped sponge, they are much flatter, but they still require an uplift tube. While many fish are tank bred in deep enough water to use a conventional sponge, some fish need pretty low water with air space above- the bubble nesting bettas and gouramis would be a perfect example of where very low water and a flat wide sponge would work best. For spawning plecos I mostly use power head driven reticulated sponges, however my Hypancistrus contradens breeding tank has an air powered sponge along with a couple of HOBs. Incidentally that site does have three good articles which all do have some discussion of sponge filters:
Airlift
A 5 Minute D.I.Y. Sponge Filter
Filters, For Dummies

If you check out some of the products found here; http/www.swisstrop...ter%20Foam.html you will see that there is a range of foam from very coarse, which would work ideal with a powerhead/sponge setup, to very fine, which would be best suited for the smallest fry.

Been to that site, read all the stuff, their foam is way overpriced imo and I refuse to pay that much for a sponge filter. I have mostly used the ATI Hydro line. Their regular line is a fairly fine pored sponge which will clog from mech waste pretty easily and which is almost impossible to use with a power head as the sponge basically collapses in on itself. For power head use I much prefer their Pro line which is a much sturdier and coarser pored sponge. This descriptions comes from kensfish.com

[font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]ATI HYDRO SPONGE PRO FILTERS: [/color][/font][font="Helvetica][color="#fca705"]NEW!
[/color][/font][font="Helvetica][color="#000000"]THE ALL NEW PRO SERIES HAS RETICULATED SPONGE FOR HIGHER FLOW RATES WHEN USING A POWER HEAD WITHOUT CLOGGING. GREAT FOR BREEDERS AND HATCHERIES AND HEAVILY SATURATED TANKES. [/color][/font]

Let me say here that I do love a good discussion like this with the back and forth. I may get a little carried away sometimes. This should never be taken personally as it is never intended to be anything more than a rousing discussion between hobbyists. In the end such issues can only be resolved via scientifically conducted means which are sorely lacking in our hobby. After all who is going to set up two sponges in a series of applications and then do bacteria counts, test flow rates, or measure mechanical efficiency to once and for all resolve such issues.

In all of this neither one of us mentioned that one of the best benefits of using sponges, whether as filters or prefilters, is that they trap edible goodies which both fry and larger fish are able to pick out of the foam to eat. I highly doubt the originally designer of sponge filters had this in mind at the time.