Split from Rat Birthing

[KathyM]

KathyM -- I'm not even the one your comments were directed at and I'm offended. Geez, at least give Libertine the benefit of the doubt, this is her first time and anyone would be excited and nervous! Just because she was asking for last-minute advice doesn't mean she didn't have a handle on things, it sounds to me like she was pretty well-prepared on the whole . I do understand your concern, but take the time to make sure that that concern is well-placed first.

You're absolutely right, I should give the benefit of the doubt. So, to do that, I'd love to see the information on the parents' pedigrees, where they were bred and who by, and of course to know what varieties Libertine is breeding for. That would set my mind at ease. Unfortunately you see so many people breeding their rats just because they think they're cute and want their babies. I'm sure Libertine would never take the huuuge risk of breeding from rats where she didn't know a long lineage of background and immaculate health and temperament of not just the two parents but their parents and their parents, and so on. Because to breed two petshop rats with no history or pedigree would be plain madness and she seems like a good 'un to me.

 

[Synirr]

Well, too, it's kinda like breeding pet shop bettas. It's generally frowned upon, but I've done it and got some fantastic fish; two of my petshop-bred babies actually won awards in show! I mean, their categories were small so it's not that amazing, but they did have competition, so all the same...

If you'll recall Libertine's old post when her rat originally became pregnant, she mentioned that her pet shop gets their rats from a breeder, so it's not like they're complete mutts even if she can't tell you what colour their grandmomma's cousin's eyes were . The point is, this means they probably aren't the poor, inbred unhealthy things that you're likely to get from most pet shops, and their offspring aren't going to be poor, inbred unhealthy things. I'm sure Libertine will take care of them and find them loving homes.

Healthy rats. Loving homes. So what if they're not pedigree?

Yes, unwanted litters from inexperienced breeders are a problem with many pets, but while Libertine may yet be inexperienced, this litter was obviously not unwanted and it will be cared for I am sure . These rats aren't going to end up in an animal shelter or something. We all have to start somewhere, and we don't all start with expensive breeding stock. I started breeding bettas with a free fish from wuvmybetta and a $10 mislabeled plakat from the pet shop and am developing my own line with genes from those two.

 

[KathyM]

Anyone that breeds rats is a "breeder" so saying a "breeder" supplies the petshop (which good breeders don't do) doesn't make the breeder responsible, or make the rats healthy. Pedigree isn't important, the lines of the rats are. Things like myco, tumours, and other health and temperament problems are carried through the lines, hence my questions about the health and temperament of the lines. Good breeding rats are not expensive, no more expensive than petshop rats. It's not about snobbery, it's about the health and temperament of rats, and the good of fancy rats as a species. Anyone who breeds without expert knowledge of the lines of the rats (including inherited problems, colour - which can effect health - etc) is not doing right by them, even if they are beginners they should put the health of the animals first.

Your post implies that it's snobbery that made me post. I'm speaking as someone with years of experience of keeping pet rats, both originating from petshops (but rescues) and from responsible breeders. I'm also speaking as someone who has lost pets to preventable and inherited disease.

This can't be fixed now, but it can be prevented in future, and if Libertine cares about her rats, she won't do this again.

I assume these won't be going to the petshop, which is at least one consolation.

 

[Synirr]

Adorable

Like I said KathyM, I totally understand your concern, I just think it was a bit rude to jump in asking about pedigrees while the rat is in labour; a little late for that, ya know? "Breeder", to me, implies someone who has a clue, but maybe you don't use the term in the same way... I like to make a differentiation between breeders and people who simply produce animals. Anyway, I think a much more appropriate way to express your opinion might have been to congratulate Libertine, who is obviously very excited (who wouldn't be, right?? I mean come on, babies!! ) then follow it up by slipping in your concerns and suggesting that, were these concerns legitimate, that she look into correcting it should she pursue breeding rats again in the future, because it's obviously too late this time around anyway. That way no one has to feel offended or like you're going to look down on them, and you still get your point across . No ruffled feathers.

 

[KathyM]

I see your point Synirr, but it's hard to congraulate someone on the birth of irresponsibly bred babies, when there are hundreds in rescue in this country and hundreds that die early from lack of care and research when breeding.

You say you don't see "breeders" as those that produce animals irresponsibly. Well anyone who breeds animals is a breeder, and anyone who supplies petshops is an irresponsible breeder. Those that supply petshops are generally rat farmers rather than "proper" breeders, that is they will breed anything with anything with no care for health or temperament. Certainly in this country it is very much frowned upon by responsible breeders, and none of them would supply petshops, and certainly wouldn't condone the recless breeding of potentially sick rats.

I know as someone looking in you must think "well they're only rats" but I have 28 pet rats here and several of them are rescues from this kind of situation.

I don't think you'd be so quick to congratulate had you owned poorly bred rats that died young, or rats churned out by people who don't give breeding a second thought.

Ahhh well, more "cute" babies. Who cares?

 

[Synirr]

Those that supply petshops are generally rat farmers rather than "proper" breeders, that is they will breed anything with anything with no care for health or temperament.

That's what I meant when I said I think of "breeders" as people who have a clue, but there is a grey area between farmers and breeders too that I think you're perhaps forgetting in this instance. Hobby breeders may not have the top lines and in most instances are frowned upon as degrading the quality of the breed, but as I said before, we can't all pay for the pedigree. I guess I'm just not seeing how suddenly you either have to breed show quality stock or be a rat farmer, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground where you can simply breed healthy pet quality rats to supply the general public, through a store a family member of yours owns no less, and that be acceptable.

I know as someone looking in you must think "well they're only rats"

"Just rats" my eye, I've had rats as companions on and off for no less than 8 years of my life. I don't think there's anything that would be "just" a life to me. I take animal welfare very seriously.

I don't think you'd be so quick to congratulate had you owned poorly bred rats that died young, or rats churned out by people who don't give breeding a second thought.

Every last one of my rats came from a pet store, was poorly bred, and died young. Most from cancer, one from incurable respiratory failure. I got to watch them wither away slowly and finally take them to vet to be put out of their misery when their suffering became too great for them to enjoy life any more.

Would you like to assume anything else about me, or are you quite finished?

Now as I was saying before, even IF Libertine's rats DID come from a farmer, and the word "breeder" to me implied more of the hobby breeder type, though this is unconfirmed, it is too late to do anything about that so as I previously stated, the best approach to such situations, in the future, would be to make suggestions about future changes rather than scolding about mistakes made in the present as they cannot be corrected. There's no sense in making someone feel bad for an honest mistake when they thought it was a good idea, that's just plain bad manners, simply discourage it in the future.

 

[KathyM]

That's what I meant when I said I think of "breeders" as people who have a clue, but there is a grey area between farmers and breeders too that I think you're perhaps forgetting in this instance. Hobby breeders may not have the top lines and in most instances are frowned upon as degrading the quality of the breed, but as I said before, we can't all pay for the pedigree.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. What is this pedigree malarkey you're on about? All pet rats are the same species, there's no such thing as a "pedigree" rat. Some rats come with "pedigrees" - and what that is (which is very different to dog/cats) is a piece of paper with the names, breeders and varieties of each rat in their lineage. It's very important to research each rat (and further back if at all possible) and their line for any inherited illness, so that piece of paper is very important, but doesn't make those rats a different "breed" to petshop ones. Maybe you think that show rats having a piece of paper that shows their parents/relatives makes them a different "breed" - it doesn't, it just makes the breeder accountable and responsible.

Decent breeders, hobby or otherwise, research the lines to make sure they breed healthy rats. Doesn't matter whether they do it on a small scale or for show/pet, but it MATTERS. If you don't do that, you're potentially passing on horrendous health and temperament problems, and that counts whether your rat is from a decent breeder, or the petshop. The only difference being you can't get information on generations and generations of rats when you buy them with no history in a petshop, hence it being a bad thing to breed them - you don't know what the parent's health or temperament is like, etc etc. As for your labels of "breeders" it just doesn't make sense to me, sorry. Anyone who breeds an animal is a breeder, it's whether you're a good one that counts. Anyone who supplies a petshop isn't a good breeder. Good breeders want to follow their lines and make sure they're not breeding dangerously, or being bred by people who don't know exactly what they're doing, like Libertine.

I guess I'm just not seeing how suddenly you either have to breed show quality stock or be a rat farmer, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground where you can simply breed healthy pet quality rats to supply the general public, through a store a family member of yours owns no less, and that be acceptable.

I said nothing about "show quality" rats. I said that if you breed rats, whether for show or for pet (show rats are pets too so I don't get this one or the other reasoning you're using), you have to do it responsibly. That wasn't done here, it was done to have "cute" babies with what looks like little or no research at all into the genetics or even into the practice.

Every last one of my rats came from a pet store, was poorly bred, and died young. Most from cancer, one from incurable respiratory failure. I got to watch them wither away slowly and finally take them to vet to be put out of their misery when their suffering became too great for them to enjoy life any more.

I'm very sorry about your losses, we've been there also with poorly bred rats (rescues, we don't support petshops). Maybe (friendly advice) next time you get rats your previous experience might guide you from supporting and funding the petshops and I'd urge you to look into rescue or going to a responsible breeder.

Would you like to assume anything else about me, or are you quite finished?

I'm not the only one guilty of making assumptions - your points on "pedigree" rats have shown that, despite me trying to explain.

Now as I was saying before, even IF Libertine's rats DID come from a farmer

There's no if about it, they did come from a farmer or smaller scale irresponsible breeder. They came from a petshop with no history or information on their lines. No good breeder sends their rats to a petshop to lose potentially lifesaving information on their lines, or have their "babies" bred from.

and the word "breeder" to me implied more of the hobby breeder type

Nope - even small scale responsible breeders won't do it.

it is too late to do anything about that so as I previously stated, the best approach to such situations, in the future, would be to make suggestions about future changes

I saw no advice on future breeding on here. Were you going to add some or was everyone too busy cooing over these babies?

I frankly have no interest in pussyfooting around members on here to stay in the in crowd, and I bet you don't either. My priority was and always will be the animals. I'm sure yours is too, but noone else was pointing out the down sides of what has happened here.

 

[dulce]

Congratulation on your lovely new arrivals Libertine - they look gorgeous, bet your excited to see how their colours come out ??

Can't everyone give the benefit of the doubt rather than turning a post about someone being proud of their pets being a rant about breeding in inappropriate situations, why would people bother to post and take pics etc if they were so flippant about their pets welfare !!

 

[KathyM]

Because, as Synirr and I have both said, she obviously didn't know any better. Now she does so she can do it properly next time if she must at all

 

[dulce]

and the point of her posting was completely lost in peoples rants, and how condecending 'if she must at all' !!! I appreciate you are obviously knowledgable Kathy but its so much nicer if someone offers advice rather than ranting when we dont know the circumstances !

 

[KathyM]

I've given plenty of advice, I just haven't cooed over the babies, or patted her on the back. Either of those things would be hypocritical to my beliefs, and therefore much more condescending to Libertine than being honest about what I think. Anyhoo, there are the facts, it's up to Libertine to make her choices from them for future. I do wish those babies all the best of luck considering their entrance into the world.

 

[dulce]

fair play, we all send the babies the best of luck - they are luckier than the ones in our barn which get caught and drowned by mr farmer down the road !

 

[Synirr]

Maybe you think that show rats having a piece of paper that shows their parents/relatives makes them a different "breed" - it doesn't, it just makes the breeder accountable and responsible.

That is exactly what I meant. When you are a serious breeder those papers matter, it is proof of the quality of the rat, and the lack of pedigree implies a novice breeder and a lesser quality rat. I know how these things work, I'm not confused about the term "breed" and how it relates to pedigree or any of that business.

Decent breeders, hobby or otherwise, research the lines to make sure they breed healthy rats. Doesn't matter whether they do it on a small scale or for show/pet, but it MATTERS. If you don't do that, you're potentially passing on horrendous health and temperament problems, and that counts whether your rat is from a decent breeder, or the petshop. The only difference being you can't get information on generations and generations of rats when you buy them with no history in a petshop, hence it being a bad thing to breed them - you don't know what the parent's health or temperament is like, etc etc.

Now this I agree with, though in Libertine's case the breeder of her rats is a relative of someone working at her pet shop so she presumably does have access to that information if she so chooses, and should access it (I don't know if she did or not, I'm assuming not). But again, that's one of those "too late now" kinda things. I still maintain that you can get decent lines from someone who supplies a pet shop though, my bettas for example. Not pedigree quality of course, but decent and healthy at least. I sell my fish on Aquabid sometimes and it's not like I know if they're going to a responsible owner (in fact, I've had my doubts before ), so there's really no way to guarantee where your animals are going without being way too invasive of the buyer's privacy... like my friend's uncle, who breeds top show quality bengal cats and requires and 2 hour interview for you to purchase one. I friend of mine's girlfriend is a rat breeder (whose rats have pedigrees, mind you,) and she sometimes sells her pet quality rats to a good pet shop in her home town. She knows the shop will care for them and doesn't sell them as snake food, so why not? She doesn't have the resources to advertise and sell them herself and would prefer not to have to ship them to online buyers.

I said nothing about "show quality" rats. I said that if you breed rats, whether for show or for pet (show rats are pets too so I don't get this one or the other reasoning you're using), you have to do it responsibly. That wasn't done here, it was done to have "cute" babies with what looks like little or no research at all into the genetics or even into the practice.

I wasn't talking about Libertine there, I was talking about the breeder who supplies the pet shop, since apparently no good breeder would do that. The differentiation between pet and show quality is made by anyone who breeds animals for show, a pet quality animal is simply one who wouldn't do well in the show circuit and is meant to be sold as a pet-only animal, not one a breeder would want to use to further their show lines

Would you like to assume anything else about me, or are you quite finished?

I'm not the only one guilty of making assumptions - your points on "pedigree" rats have shown that, despite me trying to explain.

I'll concede we're both guilty if you like (although I think the whole pedigree thing is just a misunderstanding,) but come on, you basically act like I know nothing about this issue.... what was it you said, "as someone looking in..."? I'm very careful not to set foot in topics I know nothing about because I hate having to admit when I've got no idea what I'm talking about

and the word "breeder" to me implied more of the hobby breeder type

Nope - even small scale responsible breeders won't do it.

Now I know isn't always true, note the aforementioned example... she is a responsible breeder, I can assure you. There are always exceptions, though personally I wouldn't know how frequent. The fact that the pet shop doesn't sell the rats as feeders is evidence to me that the breeder cares at least a bit. It all depends on the individual situation.

it is too late to do anything about that so as I previously stated, the best approach to such situations, in the future, would be to make suggestions about future changes

I saw no advice on future breeding on here. Were you going to add some or was everyone too busy cooing over these babies?

You already gave your advice in the context of the current breeding, but you began by making your very first sentence condescending to insure that Libertine listened to as little of what you had to say as possible, so I suppose you might have a point there after all.

I frankly have no interest in pussyfooting around members on here to stay in the in crowd, and I bet you don't either. My priority was and always will be the animals. I'm sure yours is too....

That's my point. No one wants to listen to someone who starts out by making them feel bad. Libertine isn't likely to take your advice because of how it is worded, that is almost the entire point of this conversation. A gentle touch is often times the most effective approach, a good shove should be your last resort . If the animals are really your priority you should learn how better to deal with their owners, as they are often the ones you are going to have to convince to change their ways for the sake of the animals.

 

[KathyM]

That is exactly what I meant. When you are a serious breeder those papers matter, it is proof of the quality of the rat, and the lack of pedigree implies a novice breeder and a lesser quality rat. I know how these things work, I'm not confused about the term "breed" and how it relates to pedigree or any of that business.

But that's the thing, there ARE no "breeds" with rats - they're all the same. Maybe I didn't explain it well. The papers don't count, the information they contain does, which can be collated without a piece of paper.

Now this I agree with, though in Libertine's case the breeder of her rats is a relative of someone working at her pet shop so she presumably does have access to that information if she so chooses, and should access it (I don't know if she did or not, I'm assuming not).

That's the thing, it's unlikely that information was on offer - because the breeder breeds for the petshop and therefore won't have any accurate long term information on the health or temperament of her lines (and neither will your friend's girlfriend because a lot of that information is lost by selling to strangers).

But again, that's one of those "too late now" kinda things. I still maintain that you can get decent lines from someone who supplies a pet shop though, my bettas for example. Not pedigree quality of course, but decent and healthy at least.

Again you're saying "pedigree" quality. What do you mean? I'm sorry, you've lost me, because there is no such thing as a "pedigree" rat. As for getting decent lines from the petshop, that's very much a dangerous presumption without the information I mentionned above. When rats are bred for the petshop, you can't know they're healthy, or that their line is. What might not show up in the parents could easily show up in the offspring. It's very, very dangerous to breed petshop rats because of this.

so there's really no way to guarantee where your animals are going without being way too invasive of the buyer's privacy...

That's not true - good owners want to help protect future rats as much as breeders do. If you pick the right owners for your rats, you can collate information without any breach of privacy. I maintain an excellent relationship with the breeders I have had rats off - I let them know how they are, if we have any problems, etc etc. A good breeder wants to maintain a good relationship with owners, or it's not worth breeding at all.

like my friend's uncle, who breeds top show quality bengal cats and requires and 2 hour interview for you to purchase one.

The breeders that bred some of my rats had me fill out a questionnaire and met with me to discuss things too. I didn't feel put out, I wanted to show them I was a responsible owner and they wanted to ensure I knew they were responsible breeders. It makes for a good relationship.

I friend of mine's girlfriend is a rat breeder (whose rats have pedigrees, mind you,) and she sometimes sells her pet quality rats to a good pet shop in her home town. She knows the shop will care for them and doesn't sell them as snake food, so why not?

For the reasons mentionned above. If she wants to ensure the health and temperament of the rats she breeds, she needs to be able to keep tracks on them throughout their lives.

I wasn't talking about Libertine there, I was talking about the breeder who supplies the pet shop, since apparently no good breeder would do that. The differentiation between pet and show quality is made by anyone who breeds animals for show, a pet quality animal is simply one who wouldn't do well in the show circuit and is meant to be sold as a pet-only animal, not one a breeder would want to use to further their show lines

Things must be very different where you are (no offense). Here to show rats, they have to have a good temperament and health. "Show" quality rats are therefore "pet quality" too, I don't like this idea they're mutually exclusive. A good breeder breeds for health and temperament first and therefore the rats that make it to the show world are also fantastic pets. I have rats that have done well in the shows here, and they're the healthiest and friendliest I have. Breeders don't breed for one or the other. It's best to attempt for both.

and the word "breeder" to me implied more of the hobby breeder type

Nope - even small scale responsible breeders won't do it.

Now I know isn't always true, note the aforementioned example... she is a responsible breeder, I can assure you. There are always exceptions, though personally I wouldn't know how frequent. The fact that the pet shop doesn't sell the rats as feeders is evidence to me that the breeder cares at least a bit. It all depends on the individual situation.

We have very different views on animal welfare then. Firstly there are the reasons I mentionned above, and secondly petshops sell to anyone - would you have your babies go to anyone that bought them on a whim? I know that when I was looking into being a breeder, I wouldn't have gone ahead if I couldn't find homes myself, and be available to rehome those animals should they need returning. That's the way most good breeders work over here - petshops are wrong.

 

[Synirr]

But that's the thing, there ARE no "breeds" with rats - they're all the same. Maybe I didn't explain it well. The papers don't count, the information they contain does, which can be collated without a piece of paper.

Did I say there were breeds? The papers do matter more than you'd think, at least if you're breeding for show. It's proof the rat comes from the lines you say it comes from.

That's the thing, it's unlikely that information was on offer - because the breeder breeds for the petshop and therefore won't have any accurate long term information on the health or temperament of her lines (and neither will your friend's girlfriend because a lot of that information is lost by selling to strangers).

Do you even know anyone who sells to shops? Have you bothered to ask them about their stock? I have spoken to her about her rats (I was thinking about buying from her,) and she specializes in blue dumbos (which I hate, thus not buying, lol) and told me two breeders with websites and background info on their rats that her lines came from, they both seemed highly reputable and were show stock, and she kept papers on each of her litters as well as every individual breeding adult so she could keep track of everything. If someone had told her the date they purchased a rat from the shop and described the rat to her, she could have looked it up in her files and told them which litter it came from. Obviously not everyone would have everything in such neat order, but some people do care. The breeder who provides birds for my LPS is the same way, the birds are always highly socialized and she can give you info about each of them if you ask, since there's always only one batch of each species/colour type at a time and it's easy to ask about, say, the peach faced lovebirds vs. the masked lovebirds. She doesn't keep paper records that I know of, but she knows her birds very well and can tell you off the top of her head who's who and what they are like. She stays in close contact with the shop and visits the birds often, it's not like she just takes the birds up there and throws them to the wolves.

Again you're saying "pedigree" quality. What do you mean? I'm sorry, you've lost me, because there is no such thing as a "pedigree" rat.

With any animal that can be shown, there is show quality and there is pet quality. It is a thin line. That is what I mean. I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept. If it would do well in show, it is show quality, if it would not, it is pet quality, that is all I mean when I say that. Most serious rat breeders who are really, really into it are breeding for show quality. Again I can compare it to bettas... you can buy two CTs from Petsmart and breed them and get decent fish, but they're not going to be show quality; they wouldn't win any awards.

If you pick the right owners for your rats, you can collate information without any breach of privacy.

And picking a petshop you know is careful not to let animals go to uninformed owners can serve the same purpose, don't you think?

I friend of mine's girlfriend is a rat breeder (whose rats have pedigrees, mind you,) and she sometimes sells her pet quality rats to a good pet shop in her home town. She knows the shop will care for them and doesn't sell them as snake food, so why not?

For the reasons mentionned above. If she wants to ensure the health and temperament of the rats she breeds, she needs to be able to keep tracks on them throughout their lives.

All of them? When pairs have already been proven to produce healthy even-tempered pups, I don't see how. The pet shop does have her contact information so a buyer can choose to contact her if there is a problem with one of her animals, but it is entirely up to them.

Things must be very different where you are (no offense). Here to show rats, they have to have a good temperament and health. "Show" quality rats are therefore "pet quality" too, I don't like this idea they're mutually exclusive. A good breeder breeds for health and temperament first and therefore the rats that make it to the show world are also fantastic pets. I have rats that have done well in the shows here, and they're the healthiest and friendliest I have. Breeders don't breed for one or the other. It's best to attempt for both.

Haha, I think they must be. Mostly on the whole pet shop supplier angle. You're absolutely right, pet and show quality are not mutually exclusive and I never implied that they are, but these are terms that are extremely common in show circuits. Like I said, a pet quality animal is just one that wouldn't do well in show. "Pet quality" is a term usually applied to animals produced from lines meant for show, meaning that show lines ARE bred to be wonderful pets as well, just that some animals don't quite make the cut for show and are better off as pets only for whatever reason . Usually it means they don't quite meet the standard for the breed, but it can also be that the individual animal just doesn't like the show atmosphere.

...and secondly petshops sell to anyone

I think that's why we're disagreeing right there... that's not always true. My local pet shop can and does refuse to sell certain animals if they think the customer is ill prepared to care for them. Birds are one of those animals, which is why that bird breeder I mentioned is comfortable supplying them. The rat breeder I know through a friend supplies her pet shop because, while they won't outright refuse the sale of a rat, they will refuse the sale of her rats and instead steer a customer toward the "feeders". Not only do some small-time hobby breeders care, some pet shops do too