Spasms, frequent gill scratching, and lost appetite following Prazipro dosage

[confused_aquarist]

Another panic moment. Since purchase of these killifish half a year ago, they have always had occasional gill scratchings, but I have decided to delay treatment until all of the fry are housed with adults, which is planned for next month.

However one of the juveniles is bullied and now sick. Does not eat, so I decide to treat with Prazipro yesterday. Yesterday I did not see change in behavior, but today I noticed frequent spasmodic movement (see video, I’m most curious as to what this is https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FBVKVvbn2XxZMfuSkd-znjhQqi2Hjemi/view?usp=drivesdk), along with increased gill scratching every 10 minutes or so and now little to no appetite.

I have also decided to treat with metronidazole, since I have had an outbreak of hexamita in the parent tank that killed several fish and left one slightly debilitated after recovery.

Is it common to see increased scratching and spasm of this kind after Prazipro or have I made a misdiagnosis. I was suspecting the bending up spasm could be due to intestinal irritation, hence another reason I decided to add metronidazole. I am so confused.

 

[GaryE]

I wouldn't use the antibiotic. Prazi can take several days, and if there were gutworms, they have to come out. They can take a little time and a little work, which may be what you're seeing.

I've never seen hexamita on a killifish, and I've kept many for 35 years. So let's go detective here. I have some ideas, but I don't want to throw them out there in case the background makes them impossible and that confuses the issue.

What is your water hardness?

Honestly, how often do you do water changes?

How large in the main tank and what's in it?

Have you dosed all the fish for gutworms?

Did the original hexamita diagnosis involve a greyish, whitish or coppery film?

 

[confused_aquarist]

So actually the gill scratching is observed in very early stages of fry, that are around 3 weeks old. Because I have not lost a fry or a fish despite having gill scratching (or at least I hope the initial batch death were not due to gill disease, though I could be wrong), until now I assumed that gill fluke was relatively harmless. Maybe I should not have delayed the treatment. The quarantined male seems not be able to make it.

And sorry, maybe there's some confusion. By worm I meant nematode. The group of fish actually have had both hexamita and nematode, and I had used different drugs to treat each.

Anywho the gill-scratching male has stopped eating completely, and this is very worrying...

 

[confused_aquarist]

I wouldn't use the antibiotic. Prazi can take several days, and if there were gutworms, they have to come out. They can take a little time and a little work, which may be what you're seeing.

I've never seen hexamita on a killifish, and I've kept many for 35 years. So let's go detective here. I have some ideas, but I don't want to throw them out there in case the background makes them impossible and that confuses the issue.

What is your water hardness?

Honestly, how often do you do water changes?

How large in the main tank and what's in it?

Have you dosed all the fish for gutworms?

Did the original hexamita diagnosis involve a greyish, whitish or coppery film?

My water hardness is actually almost 0, using the test kit it's near the detection limit.

Water change is 30~50% every 3~5 days. I have not had an issue with cloudy water or ammonia/nitrite/nitrate so far.

Main tank is 56L and has 12 clown killifish including the male that I am quarantining now for temporary treatment, which showed lack of appetite along with increased gill scratching after continued bullying. There are small number of plants taking space of no more than 7L or so in space. There is a small amount of substrate for biological fitration reason, maybe 1L or so. The plants are attached to small driftwood. About slightly less than 1/3 of the top corner has floating plants. The water flow is moderate because of the filter, though toned down a little bit to reduce stress.

I had dosed all the fish for gutworms, using flubendazole, which was at a concentration of 0.2 mg/L. Gutworm was only present in 1 female and was asymptomatic, and dosing seemed to eliminate gutworms completely in all fish at least in the feces. I haven't experienced issues with lack of appetite or secondary infection in any fish except for this current male that is showing increased gill scratching.

Hexamita diagnosis was done on microscope with white mucus feces before dropping on floor. At the most severe moment breathing was heavy and fish remained upside down with no movement for ~7 days. Following treatment the fish has made almost completely recovery having normal behavior and feeding, except is slightly skinny compared to other individuals and sometimes shows light color.

The fish that could not be saved were from initial purchase, and precise diagnosis with hexamita was not made because of lack of equipement at the time. However I think it is hexamita, because there were white mucus false feces and also labored breathing and floating.

I cannot diagnose for certain that this is gill fluke, because I'm not confident to take a gill sample tissue. But the quarantined male is scratching gill very often, and only gills. Some other fish show rare scratching of gills and only gills.

I also want to hear your other ideas, because even though the female that has undergone hexamita treatment no longer has protozoan in feces it does not act quite right at times. For example it's easily exhausted during spawning.

 

[GaryE]

I ask because Epiplatys (or Pseudepiplatys) annulatus is prone to dinoflagellates and Oodinium species. They present with greyish to reddish (species dependent) textured slime behind the eyes and along the spine to begin, and cause flashing. It helps to look with a strong light, as it isn't always easy to see, It has a velvety texture.

We seem to share two things, a liking for killies, but also the blessing and curse of very soft water. These parasites love softwater.

I'd suggest looking them up. See what you can see and if it relates. It's an odd parasite, because in the no water change era, it was everywhere. It was a major killer, and there were over the counter meds for it. Now, it is barely mentioned outside of killie circles, where it's a fry killer that can also take out adults.

I'd google image it, then if there is a possibility, look to meds. I have no idea what you can get in Japan.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I ask because Epiplatys (or Pseudepiplatys) annulatus is prone to dinoflagellates and Oodinium species. They present with greyish to reddish (species dependent) textured slime behind the eyes and along the spine to begin, and cause flashing. It helps to look with a strong light, as it isn't always easy to see, It has a velvety texture.

We seem to share two things, a liking for killies, but also the blessing and curse of very soft water. These parasites love softwater.

I'd suggest looking them up. See what you can see and if it relates. It's an odd parasite, because in the no water change era, it was everywhere. It was a major killer, and there were over the counter meds for it. Now, it is barely mentioned outside of killie circles, where it's a fry killer that can also take out adults.

I'd google image it, then if there is a possibility, look to meds. I have no idea what you can get in Japan.

I'm certainly going to check it tomorrow after the lights go on, I'm not very confident with my eyesight at the moment and the tiny sizes of these fry certainly don't help. Though I have to say, I have not yet lost a fry (not to brag), if that helps to clear the possibility of oodinium. I don't know very much about dinoflagellates. Could they cause scratching of gills? Mine are scratching the underside of the gills most often though sometimes the sides as well. I honestly cannot tell if it's gill scratching or jaw scratching. The parent generation has had so many pathogens, it seems anything could be going on at the moment.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I ask because Epiplatys (or Pseudepiplatys) annulatus is prone to dinoflagellates and Oodinium species. They present with greyish to reddish (species dependent) textured slime behind the eyes and along the spine to begin, and cause flashing. It helps to look with a strong light, as it isn't always easy to see, It has a velvety texture.

We seem to share two things, a liking for killies, but also the blessing and curse of very soft water. These parasites love softwater.

I'd suggest looking them up. See what you can see and if it relates. It's an odd parasite, because in the no water change era, it was everywhere. It was a major killer, and there were over the counter meds for it. Now, it is barely mentioned outside of killie circles, where it's a fry killer that can also take out adults.

I'd google image it, then if there is a possibility, look to meds. I have no idea what you can get in Japan.

Update: I checked very carefully the body surface, and took some slime and scales of fish from main tank. They don’t seem to have much of anything on there, just small bacteria. There are no external signs or symptoms on skin, only the gills it seems like.

Fortunately, the scratching behavior stopped completely today. But the crooked swimming like in the video, where the fish seems to bend up for a moment and then comes back, as if stretching, have worsened. Seems really itchy, that is the impression. Appetite is still poor, though a bit better compared to none last night. I really wonder what the stretching movement could be. It seems like the bullying had triggered a slew of underlying disease symptoms, maybe internal bacterial infection? I bought kanaplex but that is going to take until middle of January.

 

[Colin_T]

Gill flukes cause fish to breath heavily/ rapidly and most fish with gill flukes don't rub on objects. Fish rubbing on objects is a sign of external parasites, usually protozoan.

Flubendazole kills gill flukes as well as round worms and flat worms in the fish's digestive tract. If you treated the fish once a week for 3 to 4 weeks, they shouldn't have intestinal worms or gill flukes.

--------------------

There is no point adding antibiotics like Metronidazole or Kanamycin (Kanaplex) unless the fish have a known bacterial infection that hasn't responded to other treatments. Improper use and mis-use of antibiotics has lead to drug resistant bacteria that kill people, animals, birds, reptiles and fish. Throwing in different medications without knowing the problem doesn't help, can weaken the fish, and create drug resistant pathogens.

External bacterial infections show themselves as red areas. Do any of the fish have red sores that aren't healing? If not, don't add antibiotics.

Internal bacterial infections cause fish to stop eating, usually they swell up rapidly around the belly, do a stringy white poop, breath heavily, and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms.

--------------------

If fish are rubbing on objects and the water quality is good, I would treat for external protozoa (Costia, Chilodonella, Trichodina, white spot or velvet). You can use salt for the first 3 parasites or Malachite Green, which will treat all of them.

 

[Colin_T]

SALT
Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of external protozoan infections in freshwater fishes. Salt can treat early stages of hole in the head disease caused by Hexamita but it needs to be done in conjunction with cleaning up the tank. Salt can also be used to treat anchor worm (Lernaea), fish lice (Argulus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), Epistylis, Microsporidian and Spironucleus infections.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water (2 litres or 1/2 gallon) and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

 

[confused_aquarist]

SALT
Using Salt to Treat Fish Health Issues.
For some fish diseases you can use salt (sodium chloride) to treat the ailment rather than using a chemical based medication. Salt is relatively safe and is regularly used in the aquaculture industry to treat food fish for diseases. Salt has been successfully used to treat minor fungal and bacterial infections, as well as a number of external protozoan infections. Salt alone will not treat whitespot (Ichthyophthirius) or Velvet (Oodinium) but will treat most other types of external protozoan infections in freshwater fishes. Salt can treat early stages of hole in the head disease caused by Hexamita but it needs to be done in conjunction with cleaning up the tank. Salt can also be used to treat anchor worm (Lernaea), fish lice (Argulus), gill flukes (Dactylogyrus), skin flukes (Gyrodactylus), Epistylis, Microsporidian and Spironucleus infections.

You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water (2 litres or 1/2 gallon) and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

I am getting the gut feeling that this is oodinium and the improved condition of the sick male is not due to PraziPro but due to metronidazole that I had added coincidentally. In retrospect, the initial increase in flashing occurred after dosing metronidazole, not after dosing PraziPro. But why only on the gills I wonder? I have seen the flashing behavior a couple of hundred times probably and they have never been anywhere except on or around the gills. They never ended in dying fish, so I assumed it was gill fluke. So confused.

 

[Colin_T]

Just treat with Malachite Green for a week and see if it helps. Be careful about overdosing. I'm not sure how well killifish deal with Malachite green, maybe @GaryE can add some info on how safe it is for killis.
Half dose or full dose for killis?

 

[confused_aquarist]

Along with that, I would also like to know if it would be safe to use for 0.5~1cm juveniles.

 

[GaryE]

I have never had to use it with killies. I've never seen Ich on them, even when fish with them were covered. I've used acriflavene for velvet, with no issues.

I'm perplexed by this problem. They are tough fish. We caught Epiplatys singa in Gabon, from a cesspit water hole in dry season (2 days before the rain) and they had what looked like columnaris. But I've nursed a lot of damaged killies back to life after commercial shipments, and they came around with clean water. Well, most of them did.

 

[confused_aquarist]

I have never had to use it with killies. I've never seen Ich on them, even when fish with them were covered. I've used acriflavene for velvet, with no issues.

I'm perplexed by this problem. They are tough fish. We caught Epiplatys singa in Gabon, from a cesspit water hole in dry season (2 days before the rain) and they had what looked like columnaris. But I've nursed a lot of damaged killies back to life after commercial shipments, and they came around with clean water. Well, most of them did.

I can certainly relate to them being tough, having previously seen a killie going through an intestinal bloat, 2 weeks without food & swim bladder issue, plus a rectal prolapse and still managing fine afterwards. PraziPro+metronidazole really do not seem to be working very much at all for me, so I'm going to try Malachite Green. I have no idea what this pathogen is but the fish are highly sensitive to stress. I've never had success housing multiple clown killie males together, mostly because there are only few in my tank and bullying seems targeted. For some reason, only 2 out of my 18 fry ended up being males with now a total of only 3 males out of 22. Hell is going to break lose when I start housing the remaining male fry with the dad, especially if this individual doesn't make it through treatment.
I don't know. On the positive side I am hoping this to be chilodonella. I saw a ton of them crawling on fish feces at one time though never on skin scrape.