Sore Barbels And Question About Sand Over Gravel

[BryceHockey]

Hi all, I had a question about layering sand over gravel, figured I would ask here first but if I do not get enough response I could try to the main tropical discussion forum.

I have 6 three-lined corydoras in a 46 gallon aquarium (among other fish, lol). I did loads of research before choosing the stocking, mostly centered around this site. While I read that corys prefer sand, many posts said something along the lines of "sand or rounded gravel". This led me to believe that sharper or rough gravel was dangerous while smooth pebble-like substrate was ok. Since this was to be a planted tank, it made more sense to have gravel, as it doesn't seem that sand would keep plants weighted down (along with the idea that you shouldn't have a thick layer of sand to avoid harmful air pockets).

Today I noticed that one cory in particular has very stubby barbels, and his mouth area is a faint red. I examined the others and it seems that about 2, possibly 3 have the shorter barbels but at least 3 others look very healthy. I'm almost positive it's the gravel, maybe from them digging.

All this leads to my question, which is actually more about aquascaping than corys. I think I have the problem identified but need a solution. Either I have to stop keeping corys or switch to sand. While a little non-traditional, would adding sand over the existing gravel be a decent option? Unfortunately I just can't see making the switch to sand right now, with that big of a tank I can't imagine the stress on myself and the fish to uproot the plants and take everything out. I recently changed by 10 gallon gravel type and it was a 2-3 hour job. I would think that the weight of the gravel would keep it on the lowest layer and not bring it up. Is this right, or would it eventually get too mixed with the sand and look terrible? I love the corys and want to do whatever I can to keep them healthy.

 

[pinkdolphin_113]

Hi all, I had a question about layering sand over gravel, figured I would ask here first but if I do not get enough response I could try to the main tropical discussion forum.

I have 6 three-lined corydoras in a 46 gallon aquarium (among other fish, lol). I did loads of research before choosing the stocking, mostly centered around this site. While I read that corys prefer sand, many posts said something along the lines of "sand or rounded gravel". This led me to believe that sharper or rough gravel was dangerous while smooth pebble-like substrate was ok. Since this was to be a planted tank, it made more sense to have gravel, as it doesn't seem that sand would keep plants weighted down (along with the idea that you shouldn't have a thick layer of sand to avoid harmful air pockets).

Today I noticed that one cory in particular has very stubby barbels, and his mouth area is a faint red. I examined the others and it seems that about 2, possibly 3 have the shorter barbels but at least 3 others look very healthy. I'm almost positive it's the gravel, maybe from them digging.

All this leads to my question, which is actually more about aquascaping than corys. I think I have the problem identified but need a solution. Either I have to stop keeping corys or switch to sand. While a little non-traditional, would adding sand over the existing gravel be a decent option? Unfortunately I just can't see making the switch to sand right now, with that big of a tank I can't imagine the stress on myself and the fish to uproot the plants and take everything out. I recently changed by 10 gallon gravel type and it was a 2-3 hour job. I would think that the weight of the gravel would keep it on the lowest layer and not bring it up. Is this right, or would it eventually get too mixed with the sand and look terrible? I love the corys and want to do whatever I can to keep them healthy.

I'm a little confused as to why you thought gravel was better to keep plants down...

...sand is better as it becomes more stable after a period of time, (meaning it "hardens" but you're still able to uproot the plants) where as gravel doesn't.

As for the corys, its probable that the shorter barbels are due to wear from the gravel. However, I had gravel in one half and sand in the other in my previous tank with 8 C. sterbai...all were fine. Infact, they preferred to sit on the gravel and just feed on the sand.
What would be a good idea would be to go to the place you bought the fish from and see how the rest are (if there are any left of course). It could be something to do with genetics that we'll never understand.

If you tried placing sand over gravel, the sand would fall through the larger gravel allowing the gravel to be exposed. This wouldn't happen straight away but the fish sifting would speed this up. If you put some sand and gravel in a glass of water and mix it up, you'll see what I mean when it settles.


Pink.

 

[BryceHockey]

Thanks for the reply, as far as assuming that sand wouldn't work for plants, I read this on cichlid-forum (an article about changing your substrate to sand):

First off, deciding if you want sand as your tank's substrate requires taking a few things into account. Sand is not a good choice for a planted tank if using rooted plants, it’s also undesireable if you have an undergravel filter system.

When I look under the tank, there are many roots, especially from the amazon swords.

That's too bad that the sand won't stay above the gravel. Do you think this would happen even if I put a lot of sand over the gravel (enough for the sand to fill all the crevices) and then another inch or so?

As far as genetics, all I know is that all 6 corys had the healthy whiskers/barbels when I first bought them, and now a few have worn down. Pretty sure it's the gravel. There are actually 4 sword plants as well as a big piece of smooth wood for them to rest on if needed but they usually don't, understandably, I think they feel most secure on the ground.

 

[pinkdolphin_113]

Thanks for the reply, as far as assuming that sand wouldn't work for plants, I read this on cichlid-forum (an article about changing your substrate to sand):

First off, deciding if you want sand as your tank's substrate requires taking a few things into account. Sand is not a good choice for a planted tank if using rooted plants, it’s also undesireable if you have an undergravel filter system.

When I look under the tank, there are many roots, especially from the amazon swords.

That's too bad that the sand won't stay above the gravel. Do you think this would happen even if I put a lot of sand over the gravel (enough for the sand to fill all the crevices) and then another inch or so?

As far as genetics, all I know is that all 6 corys had the healthy whiskers/barbels when I first bought them, and now a few have worn down. Pretty sure it's the gravel. There are actually 4 sword plants as well as a big piece of smooth wood for them to rest on if needed but they usually don't, understandably, I think they feel most secure on the ground.

I think what that quotation is refering to is when you uproot a plant, its almost impossible to re-root it in a sand substrate.
I had amazon swords in my previous tank with sand and they were fine...heavily weighed down by the sand so if that quote is refering to general rooting of plants, its incorrect information.
Amazon swords tend to spread their roots as for as possible, trying to make themselves "pot bound" i beleive the term is. Thats the reason why you can see a lot of amazon sword roots.

I'm not sure whether or not over powering the gravel with sand would work, you could give it a go but thats also increasing the chances of anaerobic bacteria producing poisonous gasses in a thicker layer of sand.

In my honest opinion, if I found myself in this predicament, I would remove the fish, take up the plants and tied string around their roots so they're grouped together (makes it hell of a lot easier to reroot them), remove the gravel, fill the bottom up with washed sand, replant the plants and add everything else once the water has settled, doing small water changes every couple of hours.
Or I'd do the same procedure but replace the old plants with new ones (so much easier that replanting mahoosive roots).


Pink.

 

[BryceHockey]

Thanks a lot for the help, Pink! I am heavily leaning towards changing to sand for the sake of the corys. I love the gravel and it's easier to clean, but obviously the fish come first.

My only question for anyone really, is about removing the fish. Like I said, I recently changed the gravel in my 10 gallon (to a black gravel), and I removed the fish completely into a bucket of tank water. That was with only some tetras and 2 otos. Removing all of the fish from my 46 gallon in a timely manner (to not stress them too much) would be quite the challenge! I was thinking that removing the corydoras for sure would be wise so that I don't hurt them, but since all the other fish are either larger or stay near the mid-upper levels, I wonder if leaving them in would be ok if I was careful. This tank has only been stocked for a month and a half now so I don't want to wreck it or lose any fish by making the change.

 

[Harlequins]

I have changed the majority of my gravel to sand,i had the same problem i didn't want to stress the fish by moving them all out of my 55 gal tank,so over the course of a few days i gradually moved gravel out using a big tube and sucked it out,then replaced it with sand,it you carefully fill a container with washed sand,has you put it in the water let the water fill the container then gently lower it down and tip it out near the bottom.
It certainly didn't kick up a sand storm and i switched off my filters whilst doing it

It worked fine for me,i still have odd bits of gravel come to the top,mainly due to 17 corys digging away in it but i just suck it up when it happens.

Not the ideal solution,but it stopped me getting whined at when i said i was going to empty the tank to replace the gravel,all i kept hearing was we had a water meter

But has pink said removing all from the tank is probably best

 

[StrontiumDog]

Just do a full change, plants will survive quite well in sand. My vallis did very well in sand sending new shoots off everywhere till I started to reduce the light time.

If you are worried about the roots from your plants, and they will be all over the tank bottom. Don't worry, if you use sharp sissors to cut the roots down, they will grow back. Probley even stronger than before.

Sand over gravel doesn't work, because sand is lighter. It always ends up on the bottom, eventualy.

 

[Inchworm]

Hi BryceHockey

There are two possible reasons why your corys might have eroded barbels. The first is sharp edges on either sand or gravel and the second is that they could have a bacterial infection. The fish with the red around his mouth sounds like the second but the others might have a mild case too.

Bacterial infections are especially common in tanks with larger gravel. Bits of food and debris can sink between the pebbles and breed bacteria. This is perhaps the best reason to keep them on sand.

Why not think of getting a ten gallon tank and setting it up as a species tank for them? Sand doesn't have to be deep if you use unrooted plants like java fern, java moss and/or anubias.

 

[BryceHockey]

Thank you very much for the advice, everyone! Harlequins, I love that suggestion. It seems like moving all of the fish to buckets would be very stressful, so I will try a third of the substrate per day this weekend. If it isn't going well, I will fill buckets with tank water and do the full change with the fish out of the tank. The main obstacle I see is a big piece of driftwood (you can see a picture in my profile), I will have to decide whether to remove this or work around it. Since parts of it are on-top of gravel, I'll probably remove it when doing that part of the tank.

I bought 2 bags of play sand from ACE Hardware. Each has 23.5 kg of sand, I may only need one but figured I can always return the second bag if needed. Two bags were $9, not bad. It says pre-dried and washed, but I'll still wash it obviously.

Inchw, the 10 gallon idea is nice but I simply don't have the space or money for another 10 gallon. My current 10 gallon just had a makeover with black gravel as an early Christmas gift, or I would consider it. But I think that the 6 corys would much rather a 46 gallon tank than a small 10 gallon, and if I can successfully make the change to sand, I've started to think I'll prefer it over gravel (it will stop my Rams from always losing their pellets in the crevices of the gravel, lol).

I'll keep a close eye on their barbels, that wouldn't be good if it's a bacterial infection. To me, it looks like they are just eroded or worn down badly, and maybe sore. But I'm not ruling out the infection.

Crossing my fingers that this all goes well tomorrow!

 

[pinkdolphin_113]

it is your decision obviously, but if you're trying to keep stress levels of your fish to minimum, disturbance over a long period of time is going to stress them out more than one disturbance.
placing fish in a bucket isn't going to stress them out at all as long as they are together. think of imports...there are fish that stay in bags for over 12 hours!
i personally think the bigger problem is keeping the filter media wet at all times, otherwise its likely that when placing the fish back into the tank, they will die after a day of the filter running again due to a cycle starting again.
your concern for your fish is very appreciated, but fish are hardier than people think.
at the end of the day, the decision you make suits you the best so best of look with it...and i will be hoping to see some before and after photos too


Pink.

 

[BryceHockey]

I've been working since 1 pm (when I started washing the sand) and it's now 7, non-stop. Glad to say all of the gravel is out and sand is in! I decided to take the route of putting all of the fish in a large bin, with the heater. They've been in it since between 3 and 4 pm and are all looking good, though I really don't want them in much longer.

Right now, I'm waiting for the water to clear up, and it feels like it's taking forever. I filled the tank as slowly as possible and have a container (no lid) clipped the the area where the filter is pouring out to reduce how hard it hits the water. Is it normal for the water to stay cloudy for long? And if so, is it safe to put fish in even if the water is really cloudy? Right now I can only see about 2-3 inches in, it's very slowly getting better but I don't want the fish in the bin too long. If anyone has experience with this and could help answer those questions, that would be great, if not I'll continue to wait it out.

 

[Inchworm]

Hi BryceHockey

It sounds like you didn't wash it well enough at the start. The water should have been running off perfectly clear before you put the sand into the tank.

If you have a filter with an impeller or other parts that the sand can damage, be sure to check them and remove any grit that has found it's way into it. Once the silt has been filtered out it won't be much of a problem, but while it's suspended in the water it can do some harm.

You have a two part problem going here. On one hand, you don't want to put your fish in a tank with too much silt, but on the other hand, you want to preserve the bacteria in your filter so your tank stays cycled. Neither running it without fish for a long period of time nor rinsing it repeatedly to remove the sand it picks up will do it any good. I would strongly urge you to test your water regularly after you add the fish back to be sure you haven't interfered with the cycle.

 

[sanka101]

What I did for my filter when i did a full tank clean out was used a fish b ag like what you get from the LFS fill it with tank water and added some ammonia and tied it off. or else i put in the bucket with the fish. good luck!

 

[pinkdolphin_113]

you've probably done something by now, but what i would have done is either placed the filter in the bucket/bin with the fish or wrapped the filter media in cling film and frozen it.
following that, i would have done water changes over and over again until the water cleared.
i personally wouldnt put the fish in the water when its cloudy...i feel it'd be as bad as us going into a severely smokey room, without being able to blink either!
again, best of luck mate and i hope all goes well


Pink.

 

[BryceHockey]

Thank you for the responses, I had to make decisions on what to do last night and thankfully it all turned out well in the end (so far). If anyone is interested in what all I did, here's a shortened summary, not really short lol.

I washed the sand first, unfortunately there is snow outside so I couldn't use the hose. Instead I put it in buckets and rinsed it in a tub in the basement that has a small hose. I spent 2-3 hours washing the sand and couldn't get it clear all the way, I don't know how others get perfectly clear water. But did the best I could.

After that, I pretty much followed the guide that is somewhere on these forums (from a pinned topic). The fish were netted out and put in a tub of tank water (I had an extra heater), I decided it would be far too hard to try and add sand and push aside the gravel, and probably stress the fish more. Difference between Harlequins' situation and mine was that my gravel was too big to be siphoned up. I had everything planned out and nearby so I could do it as efficiently as possible. After about 6 hours (including rinsing the sand), the sand was finally added. I fill the tank with some buckets of tank water and then about 50% new water, pouring it onto a container to not disturb the sand. Unfortunately the sand still clouded the water pretty badly.

I was panicking because it was already getting late and the sand wouldn't settle. I turned the filter back on (it's an external canister so the media remained in water the whole time). I put a layer of cheesecloth in the filter to hopefully strain some of the particles out, I think it has helped a little bit. My gut feeling was that leaving the fish in the tub overnight would not be a good idea. I don't know how well the filter could really run in that, because it creates a strong current and I think it would have thrown the fish around. Being very scared to put the fish in the tank, I decided to try it. 3 Rasboras were put in, and they seemed to do well. They had a lot of color and were swimming as normal. Very slowly I started adding in the other fish, and basically watched them for 2 hours. The Rams were grabbing a mouthful of sand and spitting it out, I've heard they enjoy doing that. The corys love the sand, they'll dig in it a little bit and flick some up.

This morning I was glad to see that ALL fish are looking healthy and active, the water is clearing up as well. I will keep an eye on the filter and remove any sand from it that I can, I had read about the sand damaging the impeller but also read a post that said their water did not clear up for several day, then they turned on the filter and it began clearing up.

The water is 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, between 5-10 nitrate according to the API test kit (I don't trust the nitrate test much but it doesn't seem to be near anything dangerous). Obviously will continue to test.

I'm just glad all the fish are doing ok. And of course I'll post some before and afters when it's all clear, I love the look of the sand!

One final question, Pink you mentioned water changes. Do you think that a water change right now would help or bother the tank more? It's still cloudy and I'm very willing to do one if it wouldn't make things worse.