Some Marine Options

[CAC]

Ive decided that I want to set-up a marine tank, which I have considered before, but this time I really want to get one going, diving recently has kinda re-inspired me...
I have a 18g tank, 24x12x15h" tank, with overhead lighting, so its open top that I can use, or I could get a bigger one of about 36" long with the same depth and height for downstairs, and move the fish I have now into the 18g (I dont want to use the juwel for a marine tank). The other thing I could do is get an even smaller tank (say 10g or so).
I dont really mind what I keep, as in these size tanks the only preds would probably be frogfish...(the 36" couldnt house lions, or morays could it?)
If frogs are ouyt of the question because of dificulty or tanksize (what is their min tank size?) then one thing I would really like to incorperate is a symbiotic shrimp/fish pair. When I was away in koh tao there was a yellow watchman and his shrimp counterpart, and they would move burrows every so often, mainly because of storms dissrupting the sea floor, and I found the really interesting to watch. From what I can think, yellow watchmans need a min tank of about 15g or so, so if I went fo one of those, could I keep any other fish in there? (I assume I could keep hermits, snails etc as my clean-up crew...)

Thanks, Mike

 

[ox5477]

pm andywg for any info on frogs if he doesnt post on this thread first. He is the first member I think of if I wonder anything about frogs

 

[CAC]

Ok thanks for that, hopefully he will post on here. The frogs hes put pictures up of are the only ones ive seen in captivity and theyre just amazing looking...

 

[thefirethief]

The latest issue of PFK has a nice 6 page article on frogfish and according to that, certain species can be kept in tanks as small as 5Gal. If you are really wanting a lionfish then Dendrochirus brachypterus (dwarf fuzzy lionfish) might be worth considering although it will still limit what other livestock you include. They look absolutely stunning and I'm in the middle of trying to decide whether to sacrifice my stocking options for one or whether to go for a peaceful community type reef.


hope that was of some help!
Mark

 

[andywg]

Let's do this in bits. My first piece of advice is to buy Reef Fishes Volume 1 by Scott Michael. He covers all the fish you are interested in within the book and has some great advice. He is also considered somewhat of an expert on frogfish.

Frogfish

The problem with keeping frogfish in smaller tanks is keeping the water quality up. If you can look after the water quality then some can be kept in very small tanks.

I have seen a video of 2 Antennarius dorehensis spawning in a 6.5 gallon tank, but these are very hard to come by(if at all) in the UK.

The smallest fairly common frogfish will be Antennarius maculatus or the warty frogfish. These can be kept in 20 gallons fine, and with decent skimming and water changes you can, in theory, push this a little bit further. The 24x12x15 could probably house a couple (problems of frogfish eating things bigger than themselves notwithstanding).

The 36" tank would open up the possibility of keeping larger frogs such as A. striatus, A. nummifer, A. pictus or A. multiocellatus. Again, the availability of varied species in the UK is not as good as the US.

Remember that with frogs you have to either be able to get them onto frozen (not always easy) or to have a good supply of live feeders (breeding mollies or a supply of river shrimp). It is also very easy to overfeed a frog.

Morays

I have previously posted the below list of smaller morays needing around 20 gallons here. Note that there may be issues with price and availability, not to mention a need for aggressive skimming and that some of these morays are out and out piscivores.

Smaller growing morays (from Reef Fishes Volume 1)include:

Enchelycore carychoa (Chestnut Moray) 34cm (13.4")
Gymnothorax brunneus (Brown Moray) 25 cm (9.8")
Gymnothorax buroensis (Latticetail Moray) 33cm (13")
Gymnothorax gracilicaudus (Slendertail Moray) 32 cm (12.6")
Gymnothorax herrei (Herre's Moray) 30cm (11.8")
Gymnothorax melatremus (Golden Moray) 18cm (7.1")
Gymnothorax richardsonii (Richardson's Moray) 32 cm (12.6")
Uropterygius macrocephalus (Largehead Snake Moray) 40cm (15.7")

All of the above are recommended as a 20 gallon minimum tank size, though I find that occasional Scott W. Michael seems to slightly undersize the tanks. One must remember that the sizes are the maximum lengths so in an aquariums expect a little less.

Lionfish

The 18 gallon should fit the smaller Dendrochirus spp lionfish such as fumanchu (Dendrochirus biocellatus) and the aforementioned fuzzy dwarf (D. brachypterus).

However, beware that the smaller lionfish are often somewhat more difficult to get feeding than their larger brethren.

It should be possible in the 18 gallon to house a fumanchu and maybe another smaller scorpionfish (such as a Rhinopias sp or Pteroidichthys amboienses).

My Choice

If it were me, I would look at 2, maybe 3, A. maculatus. Buy one, get it feeding well and try and find another at the same size (large size difference = expensive feeder).

I would get as good a skimmer as I could, probably the Tunze 9005 (if not the 9002 may suffice) which will sit in the tank and will do a great job.

Flow rate for frogs wants to be quite low with 10x being a good comfortable high. frogs do very poorly in SPS tanks with huge turnover rates.

If you had to go the fuzzy dwarf lion route, try and find a yellow or green variant. they are super rare, and very costly, but look gorgeous (obviously not as good as a frog, but they aren't bad )

 

[CAC]

Thanks thefire, ill have to try and get it from somewhere and have a read, cheers for that.
Andy: Thanks for all the info! I know where I can get a Dendrochirus biocellatus from, but neither of the stonefishes you mention...
I cant find anyone with the morays you mention, however Enchelycore carychoa and Gymnothorax richardsonii have been mentioned on tropicalfishfinder before which would make me think theyve been for sale before...
I also cant find anyone with any Antennarius maculatus...
Have you had much success with frogs before, or are they hard to keep going?
Im going to look into skimmers, and ill try and get that book (its £55 on amazon, none on ebay. Is that an ok price, I have no idea how much they normally go for)

Thanks alot, Mike

 

[andywg]

Thanks thefire, ill have to try and get it from somewhere and have a read, cheers for that.
Andy: Thanks for all the info! I know where I can get a Dendrochirus biocellatus from, but neither of the stonefishes you mention...

Scorpionfishes, not stonefishes. I wouldn't recommend stonefishes for any but the most suicidal of fishkeepers (naturally I am half interested in acquiring one or some)/

I cant find anyone with the morays you mention, however Enchelycore carychoa and Gymnothorax richardsonii have been mentioned on tropicalfishfinder before which would make me think theyve been for sale before...

Perhaps. your best bet would be to contact a marine importer, such as TMC, and ask them.

I also cant find anyone with any Antennarius maculatus...

I know TMC have them quite regularly. My lfs has got two from there in the last 6-10 months.

Have you had much success with frogs before, or are they hard to keep going?

I have had a mixed bag. My first frog (Antennarius striatus) did really well and ate nicely. My second (an Antennarius hispidus) never settlee greatly and did not take food. Sadly both these fish dies when I moved my tanks around. It seems frogs don't like to be moved too much.

My third frog (the yello Antennarius maculatus was beautiful, but again just didn't acclimate to aquarium life and died.

Touch wood, the most recent one is doing well. He has the advantage of living in my reef's fuge, so has a huge volume of water to live in, despite being in a small tank.

Frogs are certainly not the easiest of marine fish to keep, and can be quite delicate to start. But once settled and feeding they are not too bad.

Im going to look into skimmers, and ill try and get that book (its £55 on amazon, none on ebay. Is that an ok price, I have no idea how much they normally go for)

I think I paid about £45 for it, give or take. It is worth it as it covers all the eels, toadfishes, sea horses, piefishes, frogfishes, walking batfishes, scorpionfishes, lionfishes, anthias and a few other fish I can't think of right now.

 

[CAC]

Ok thanks, Im going to email or ring TMC and see if they could get the frog/s in. If I could get say two Antennarius maculatus or even better (by the sounds of it) two Antennarius dorehensis, and if I have trouble and they die, then I could try hardier things like the lions (which I know I can fairly easily get hold of)...
I could get the 9005 skimmer, but its £170, and the 9002 is only £90, so if it would be ok with that then I could spend the money on extra LR etc...
Are there any powerheads you would reccomend? I know tunze do those nano streams, with the smallest putting out 2500lph, which on my tank would be a turnover of 34times per hour, which like you said, would be far too much for a frogfish...I do have a HOB with a 5x turnover, but thats not enough. When using skimmers, what LR to water volume ration should be used, cos for non-skimmed tanks ive heard of 1lb per gal, to 1kg per gal...And with a skimmer it surly would be less?

 

[andywg]

Aim around 1lb per gallon.

The skimmer is in addition to the LR, not replacing any of it.

Recently people have been ramping up the LR amounts from 1lb per gallon to 2 lb per gallon which is going to start making the tank look like a rock tank.

Finding appropriate powerheads ofr a tank that small is not easy.

You could look at the hydor koralias, they go one smaller than the Tunze IIRC, or else just plump for "normal" powerheads.

The 9002 is good for up to about 150 litres IIRC. This should be enough on your tank, especially after knocking a liitle bit off the skimmer's ability to take into account you have a predator or two in there rather than smaller community fish.

 

[CAC]

Right, so that would mean I will need 8kg of LR for my tank then.
My tank is 72litres, so that should be fine, like you say.
Ill have a look through ebay for ones and see if I cant find something.
Are frogs ok with soft corals like mushrooms and zoos, cos I was thinking of having a go with them, my lights should be up for it...
I assume frogfish arent jumpers, because I dont have a lid.

 

[CAC]

Ive just seen this tank for sale on ebay. Its not too far from me, so pick up would be possible. I know it not exactly what I would be looking for, but it has all the stuff I would need, making setting up the 18g for frogs/lions abit easier, and I think we were after one for downstairs anyway...
Does anyone know much about JBL?
Are the PCs on there (which he said are 72w between them) enough for soft corals, or even LPS? The corals in there now look ok...
Also, he has some tests, a refractometer, maxijet 900, salt and some other stuff which makes things easier.