Some Dying Fish And Ph Imbalance

[crix]

Hey All,

I posted here around 2.5 weeks ago regarding a goldfish which had died, seemingly from a swim bladder disorder as it was floating on its side, then swimming nose down in circles and doing all sorts of strange tricks. At the time I knew ph, which was on 7, however i had no idea of ammonia, or nitrites. That one was the only one that was ill, and had seemed quite quiet for a while.

There are some other issues now (below), the tanks situation;

The ammonia is at 0.25 ppm
The nitrites are at 0 ppm
The ph is at 6, and even though i have used ph up to put it back to 7 (last week), it has now gone back. The only reason im changing it is because im told goldies need to be at around 7 - 7.5, as well as the danios. I also have a couple of little aussie discus like fish in there.
The tap water has a ph of 7

The tank also has a bunch of live plants.

Around 4 days ago i started an ick treatment which has now finished, and the water was changed again today.

Well some more of the fish are now acting up, and showing similar behavior such as lodging themselves into the plants and just sitting there, then floating up a bit and then swimming back down. At the moment its a black moore thats being strange, and on top of that a zebra danio died yesterday (he was tiny and couldnt get half as much food as the others, so it could have been underfeeding for him). Also three of my little red snails have just dried up and sunk to the bottom.

Some help on this would be brilliant.

Thank you in advance!

 

[loveyourfish]

Wow! so many problems at 1 time...I used to have goldfish with swimming disorder...mostly is due to feeding problem.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

wow so many issues

firstly is the tank new?

the ammonia level is very worrying, if it's a new tank then it's cycling and you need to read this, if the tank's not new then it's a sure sign that you've too many fish for your filter and it's not coping so you need to get a bigger better filter or re-home some fish.

the fish dying is pretty likely from ammonia poisoning. ammonia should always read 0.

in addition to that you've got coldwater and tropical fish together which is a very bad idea, they need different foods so you can't possibly get the right levels of protein etc to all the individual fish. also the temp will either be too high for the goldfish or too low for the tropicals, this will mean they're immune system gets weakend, and while it may not cause them any harm in the short term, long term it will affect they're ability to fight off diseases and they will not live as long as they should (goldfish can live up to 40 years if cared for well)

the key to pH is stability, having a pH continually going up and down between 6 and 7 will do your fish much more harm than leaving it stable at 6. stop trying to change it and just let it settle, it's likely that it's being affected by the ammonia levels, cycling tanks often have pH swings (another reason why fishless cycling is best) once it's settled it'll likely revert to the pH of your tap water.

 

[Crayola105]

Is this a pond or something outdoors?

 

[crix]

Thank you very much for your advice... This will help a lot!

My fish tank is around 2 months old now, however the comet goldfish (dead) and the black moore were not. They have/had been around for a year and a half. When i set up my tank i didnt really know a lot about cycling (thank you for the link), and the lfs had told me i could just throw all the fish i wanted into the tank, so i took the conservative route and only added a few, with a decent filter and worked for regular water changes. I was told that if i was paying attention to ph it was more than most people do so i definetly didnt need to worry about ammonia or nitrites! How incorrect!!! Im assuming that the extra fished caused the ammonia which killed my goldie.

As such the only ammonia readings were from around 1 week ago and today, a week ago it said 0, today it says 0.25.
Nitrites have stayed the same from last week to this week.
Ph was relatively steady for the first month of having the tank, and then dropped (again, having added more fish, more ammonia?) and i upped it, and since it has been doing the same thing... dropping and then i up it so on and so forth.

Regarding the ph, the stability is very useful to know about. I will consider that at all times now.

Also, your comment; "the temp will either be too high for the goldfish or too low for the tropicals, this will mean they're immune system gets weakend, and while it may not cause them any harm in the short term, long term it will affect they're ability to fight off diseases and they will not live as long as they should" should be pinned somewhere! Ive searched for this information everywhere, and all ive found is mixed reports of yea my mixed fish are fine, and no mine are not so on and so forth. It really is very logical though!

One more thing too, i guess the ick came about when the new fish were introduced as i hear its caused by stress of temperature, ammonia, bullying etc. However, how long does it take for ick to appear? Is the 1 month period between introduction of fish and appearance of ick logical? Or would it have been something else? Furthermore, does the ick medicine (ichoniex) cause any stress to other lifeforms, ie the snails?

Again, thank you v much!

Crayola, no this is a 210l / 55 gal tank, which did not recieve proper fishless cycling so it would seem!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

sounds like you've pretty much hit the nail on the head with a lot of things there. glad your getting the hang of things now and getting on top of it all.

I was told that if i was paying attention to ph it was more than most people do quote]

sadly the lfs was probably right about that, but just cos most people do it doesn't mean it's right

not sure about the incubation period for ich sorry, there's many things that can cause it, the worst culprit is poor water quality. it's likely that the extra fish added too much bio load for the filter, the high levels of ammonia then brought the ich on.

yes you do need to be careful with ich meds, they can be very harmful to some lifeforms, howeve i'm not sure exactly which ones. best bet is to post in the emergencies forum and one of the people who know a lot about disease and medications can help you with that.

the other thing to consider is how have you cleaned your filter out? do you know that your not meant to scrub it or run it under tap water but just squeeze out the sponges occasionally in tank water. this is one of the most common mistakes made and can be fatal. cleaning the filter wrong can wipe out your filter colony and therefopre start a cycle again.

soooooo you now need to decide what to do to move on from here.

first thing is to treat the ich, as i said post in emergencies and check what you should be doing, tell them that the tank is cycling so you need to be careful not to add any meds that will wipe out your filter colony. I suspect you will find yourself doing a lot of water changes the next week or so.

while your doing this you need to decide if you want to keep the tropicals or coldwater fish and set about finding homes for the ones you're not going to keep, obviously don't re-home them while they are ill, you need to get them healty before passing them on to anyone.

 

[crix]

Yea ill jump into the emergencies forum and ask about the ich. I guess if i dont fix that up theyll all die which is obviously no good!

And yea i have cleaned out the filter in the drained tank water so as to avoid killing the bacteria. I had an idea of some of the priciples but not how they all tied together sadly.

Your last comment on what to do... thats the one i dont like the idea of !! Im very fond of my black moore and dont want to put him in a little tank, but would also love a full tropical tank. I might see if i can find someone who is interested in taking him over. Otherwise i might return the tropicals and stick with coldwater for 40 years!!

Well thank you again, very very much. I couldnt be more appreciative.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

well there's a very very simple solution to your problem of what to do next...... get another tank

and although goldies can live 40 years, you shouldn't nescessarily expect it in every fish, so don't feel if you kept him that's all you'd be stuck with forever.

good, glad it's not the filter cleaning then. sorry if i'm telling you stuff you already know, better to say it and have you hear something twice than not say it and have you not know.

 

[crix]

Haha yea youre right I agree though, the other tank would be the best bet! My housemate wants fish, maybe ill set up his tank for him and pass them over.

And yea im glad youre asking these questions as it clears things up in my head a lot aswell. Even though its a ####ty situation, im learning a lot!

I havent posted in the emergencies forum regarding the ich yet, however i took your advice from the post re cycling with fish and have been changing 20% water daily, so with any luck theyll all be alright, however the black moore is still very sluggish and will sit on the bottom for ages, but seems completely fine otherwise...

Anyway ill jump on the emergencies now!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Haha yea youre right I agree though, the other tank would be the best bet! My housemate wants fish, maybe ill set up his tank for him and pass them over.

And yea im glad youre asking these questions as it clears things up in my head a lot aswell. Even though its a ####ty situation, im learning a lot!

I havent posted in the emergencies forum regarding the ich yet, however i took your advice from the post re cycling with fish and have been changing 20% water daily, so with any luck theyll all be alright, however the black moore is still very sluggish and will sit on the bottom for ages, but seems completely fine otherwise...

Anyway ill jump on the emergencies now!

so long as your learning from your mistaes thats all that matters in my book.