Small Tank Fishless Cycle

[waterdrop]

On pH, that means your pH is 8 and you can switch to just using the High pH test unless it drops and gives you a reading at the bottom of its scale, then you would have to check it with the lower one. You don't have to waste liquid from both kits unless you are near the crossover points they share.

On the light problem I was just trying to put you between 1 and 2 watts per gallon (for "easy plants", "low light technique" as they say.) Yes, if you made this your betta light with no plants or fake ones that might be a solution and then got a new tank/light for using with live plants. Be aware that the "watt/gallon" rule doesn't hold very will for very small (like yours?) or for very large and I kinda forget how the rule changes, so you might do searches and persue that in the planted and hardware forums if you want.

There may also be some weird solution to your problem that I don't know of like some sort of converter or something the hardware guys would know or something. Good luck!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

The way it works, and for me it's easier to remember this way, is that the rule falls apart because we really don't care about gallons. We really care about how much light falls on each square inch of water surface because that relates to how much falls on each square inch of leaf. If you think about the surface area of a 5 and a 15 gallon tank, the area only goes up a little while the volume has tripled. What it means is that 2 WPG over a small tank is more like 1 WPG would be over a large tank. Since most of the thumb rules about lighting came from people playing around with 4 ft long tanks, you would treat the 2 WPG of a 10 gallon as if it were only 1WPG. On a really large volume tank, much of the added volume comes from deeper water and a bit more distance from front to back on the tank. That means that 2 WPG might have the effect of say 2.5 WPG. As long as you keep in mind the concept of volume vs area, you won't get it wrong.

 

[petertr]

Looks like your cycle is going very well. Ammonia is being converted into Nitrite. Seems that the 2nd stage of the cycle takes twice as long as the first - so there's a little more waiting to go I'm afraid.


I wouldn't change too much water as you will lose the nitrite source for the bacteria, but a 25% every 3-4 days shouldn't hurt if you want to try to see why the pH has risen. Is there anything with calcium carbonate in there? Crushed coral?

Might be worth testing the kh and gh of the water - although its not all that important really.


As for the lighting, are you saying you only have the one "moon light" and nothing else? If you want plants, I understood that you need a proper light in there.

 

[Tropicoll]

Hi guys

Many thanks for the responses. I'm not too concerned about changing the water right now, I want to see what happens with the Nitrites before I go too far. I will probably do a small water change at the weekend.

As far as I know there's nothing with calcium carbonate in there, the substrate is a black gravel. No crushed coral or similar. I have 4 plants, 1 small piece of bogwood, the heater and filter (Fluval 2+).

Am at work so can't post last night's test results (in my log in my sig though ) but will post them along with tonight's results later.

When I can (hopefully tonight or tomorrow) I will get to the LFS and pick up some fertilizing tabs and tests for kH and gH (I have the paper tests but trust them not a bit!).

I do indeed only have the "moon light" at the moment and it's starting to bug me. I think for the short term (a couple of weeks!) I will get a standard sun type bulb. I have found some "compact" lights that I think will work to replace the 8w buld with 15 or 18w but I will start a new thread in general tropical discussion so as not to pollute this thread too much.

Thanks again!

 

[waterdrop]

Peter and Trop,

In fishless cycling, small percentage water changes have almost no meaning. As long as you remember to recharge ammonia up to (usually 3ppm during the ammonia spike period) your desired level after a water change, there never need be any concern about having "nitrite food" in the water, there will be plenty despite even a complete water change.

In general, any water change during a fishless cycle will bring a pause, adding perhaps a day or so to your overall fishless cycling time. There are, however, reasons to like an occassional water change during the nitrite spike 2nd phase. Once nitrates(NO3) especially have built way up, there are reports that clearing most of this as well as the spiking nitrite is good for speeding up especially N-Bac growth. Also, it can lower your nitrite(NO2) readings down to where you get a time or two of seeing them exhibiting some movement, which can lift the spirits of some fishless cyclers who feel nothing is happening.

I would wait though, for NO3 to get pretty high, then do a nice 90% change with gravel clean. Its good practice for the gravel cleaning you'll be doing each week in the future.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tropicoll]

Trop! I love that!

I think today's results are from the "I'm not sure I believe the readings episode. Brought to you in association with the letters N, O, H and the numbers 2 and 3".

First up, yesterdays:

Fishless Cycle Day 10 on 39l/10g Tank:
4 plants, 1 small skull decoration, 1 small bogwood, no extra chemicals, apparently 1 snail!
API Master Liquid test kit

Test time 1730
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 8
Ammonia: 1ppm
Nitrite: 5 (actually five PLUS!)
Nitrate: 20

So, no change from day 9. I added the 1.25 ML Ammonia 9.5% to bring the Ammonia level back up. Then I went out and forgot to re-test the ammonia.

Fishless Cycle Day 11 on 39l/10g Tank:
4 plants, 1 small skull decoration, 1 small bogwood, no extra chemicals, apparently 1 snail!
API Master Liquid test kit

Test time 1745 - 24 hours 15 minutes after adding ammonia.
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 1 (actually five PLUS!)
Nitrate: 5

These are the results that I am inclined not to believe. I just don't understand why the NitrAte would drop like that. From all I've read the Ammonia and NitrIte should eventually process in 12 hours, fair enough and the Ammonia processing in 24 hours is a great start. NitrItes dropping is good too but surely it's a bit quick as I'm only on day 11 of the cycle.

What has confused me is the NitrAte dropping. Anyone got any ideas? Should I re-test before adding the daily dose of Ammonia?

WD - I am happy to wait for the NO3 to get real high before changing the water - I assume that would be around the 80 - 160 mark when fishless cycling?

I would also guess that when the tank is eventually settled and running I would be changing the water regularly (weekly(ish) maybe a little less?) dependent on the NO3 readings?

Apologies for all the possibly dumb questions, don't want to end up like tenohfive and incur the wrath of the forum!

 

[waterdrop]

You're fine. Your 4 plants probably got hungry and ate some nitrates (they prefer ammonia but they eat nitrates too!) Plus, you can never trust nitrate test readings too much, especially during cycling.

Beginners always worry too much about nitrate. Its better just not to care. Much more important is watching how many hours it takes for the other two to drop. That's what we're usually focused on the most. Is ammonia dropping in 24 hours, great, now can it drop in 22 hours, 20 hours etc. Then it drops in 12 hours and that's a good milestone. Meanwhile its putting out a lot of NO2 and that builds up and spikes above what the test can show, then you wait often twice as long before you can see that begin to drop on a nice regular basis. Then, just when you think nitrite is going to drop in 12 hours, just like your ammonia it stalls and drives most people nuts near the end!

Once the tank has fish and is running, you should *not* base your water changes too much on NO3 readings. Much, much better for a beginner to establish a hard and fast habit at first of weekly water changes, always with gravel clean. This will keep your gravel clean and you also want to establish once a month as filter cleaning time (in tank water of course!) As you get more experienced you may alter these habits eventually, but for beginners this is far and away the best set of habits to establish.

You see, NO3 is just the "canary in the mine" and really there can be hundreds of trace minerals and organics that we can't test for but that we want to *not* build up in our tank water. So regular water changes will keep this from happening. If you get into the advanced planted tank hobby, that can turn out to be different, but for normal community tank beginners focused mostly on fish, I believe these are good habits to start keeping in mind.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Tropicoll]

Wow, it's certainly feels like ages since I've been able to get on here!

WD - Once again, many thanks for the awesome response, it certainly helps!

And so:

Fishless Cycle Day 12 on 39l/10g Tank:
4 plants, 1 small skull decoration, 1 small bogwood, no extra chemicals, apparently 1 snail!
API Master Liquid test kit

Test time 2000 - 24 hours 15 minutes after adding ammonia.
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 7.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 1 (actually five PLUS! - I think you're right, it's off the scale)
Nitrate: 5

1.25 Ml Ammonia added to bring ppm to 4.

Day 13

Test time 0745 11 hours 45 minutes after adding ammonia.
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 7.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 1 (actually five PLUS! - I think you're right, it's off the scale)
Nitrate: 5

0800 - Added 1.25ml ammonia

Day 14 (We had a family emergency on day 13 (13 November too!) so was very wayward with my tests unfortunately.

Test time 1430 - 30.5 hours after adding ammonia.
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 7.8
Ammonia: 0.25ppm
Nitrite: 1 (actually five PLUS!)
Nitrate: 5

Added 1.25 ml ammonia at 1700.

Day 15 (Today!)

Test time 1615 - 23 hours 15 minutes after adding ammonia.
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 7.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 2?
Nitrate: 5

I have once again added 1.25ml ammonia to the tank.

I really do wish the Nitrite test was easier to read!

In other news, I managed to do some fishnerding (as my wife calls it) at the LFS yesterday. I picked up a tropical sunlight tube for the light and have put that in. It's much brighter already. I think as one of the other respondents mentioned, the moonlight bulb just wasn't cutting it.

I also managed to pick up some Tropica Aquacare plant nutrition capsules (LFS guy reckons one tablet per plant every six months or so as they are slow release tabs) and some TetraPlant Plantamin.

Oh, and the tank's slightly cloudy...

 

[Tropicoll]

Fishless Cycle Day 16 on 39l/10g Tank:
10 plants, 1 small skull decoration, 1 small bogwood, no extra chemicals, apparently 1 snail!
API Master Liquid test kit

Test time 1715 - 24 hours 45 minutes after adding ammonia.
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 7.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 1 (actually five PLUS! - I think you're right, it's off the scale)
Nitrate: 5-10

1.25 Ml Ammonia added to bring ppm to 4.

Following advice from the LFS I purchased 6 new plants today, 4 twisted vallis, 1 Cabomba and one I can't identify. Names are courtesy of my Dad!

I will take a pic later and get it posted. I will also try and run the tests before I go to work tomorrow. I'm pretty sure that the Ammonia is processing in 12 hours but no movement on the Nitrites yet. Not surprising having read other threads. Patience my young Padowan!

Oh, and the bacterial bloom has gone!

 

[Tropicoll]

Just a quick update.

Fishless Cycle Day 17 on 39l/10g* Tank:
10 plants, 1 small skull decoration, 1 small bogwood, no extra chemicals, apparently 1 snail!
API Master Liquid test kit

Test time 0700 - 13 hours 45 minutes after adding ammonia.
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 7.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 1 (actually five PLUS! - I think you're right, it's off the scale)
Nitrate: 5-10

1.25 Ml Ammonia added to bring ppm to 4.

*Realised last night that my tank might not be 39L. Did some measurements and with the help of a reader on my blog, we reckon that the tank size might actually be 54 litres. Unfortunately I cannot find any paperwork that came with the tank and the model number was only on the packaging.

Is this going to make too much difference to the amount of ammonia for the daily add?

 

[Schmill]

54L would require 2.27ml of 9.5% ammonia to take it to 4ppm.

This means at the moment you are almost 50% down, do you ever do an ammonia test say 1 hr after you add your ammonia? If not you should try to, at least 'quite often' if not everytime, as this is the only way to be sure what level you are actually raising your ammonia to.

For instance when I started my latest fishless cycle I used a bottle of ammonia solution that had been 'sitting' for about 6 months, and I added the amount the calculator said should take the tank to 5ppm. However over the 6months it seems that some of the ammonia had escaped from the solution in the bottle and my solution was no longer "9.5%", so I actually had to increase the amount I dosed. I would never have known this if I wasn't testing 1 hr after adding the ammonia. (The reason you wait 1hr is to make sure the ammonia is well mixed within the water).

Just checking the calculator again, if your tank IS actually 54L, then when you add your 1.25ml (if it's 9.5% solution), then you are actually only raising the level to about 2.2ppm.

At the point in the cycle you are at now, (nitrIte spike), I don't think this is actually a bad thing, as most people will reduce the amount of ammonia they dose when in this stage anyway. However, when your ammonia and NitrItes are dropping to zero within 12 hours, you will then need to gradually increase the amount of ammonia you are adding to the tank to mkae sure you are dosing 5ppm, and getting the whole lot reduced to zero in 12 hours.

If you are happy with the calculations you did, then I'd suggest adding todays ammonia when it's due, then testing after an hour to see what you ACTUALLY have, and then post THAT amount on your test results).
If you are 'dubious' on the calculations, then post your measurements on here and I'm sure we can confirm the literage for you.

 

[Tropicoll]

Hi Schmill, thanks for the reply!

The grey area shows the tank and the yellow triangle is what would make the "cube". Height of the is is 45cm.

A couple of different people have told me that by my measuring and their calculations the tank is 54litres.

Of course, I also have 10Kg of gravel in the bottom which (I think!) would bring the volume to 44 litres. Then I have to consider that the tank is not full to the brim and has a piece of bogwood and the Fluval 2+ filter.

I think I am panicking over nothing. When taking into account the substrate and other bits and pieces I think I have 40 litres (ish) of water in the tank.

So, my amateur calculations for the ammonia based on a 39litre TANK size works out ok as I actually have 40 litres of WATER to condition. This would mean that 1.25ml ammonia would bring the level to approximately 4ppm (as accurate as the API test kit can be I think)

I do try and test the ammonia about an hour after adding but like this morning I did the tests (and added ammonia) at 0700 and had to be at work for 0730.

Should I be adding the ammonia whenever it's at zero ppm, even after a 12 hour test?

Thanks again for your help everyone!

 

[Schmill]

Ok, sorry, I didn't have a chance to read your entire thread, so didn't know you were double checking the ammonia dosage an hour after adding it. If you are doing that and it comes up with the right figures, then all is well

Should I be adding the ammonia whenever it's at zero ppm, even after a 12 hour test?

This was something I asked too as I couldn't remember, but it is:

Test: Every 12hr
Top-Up Ammonia: Every 24hrs, (presuming it is at zero).

When ammonia and nitrIte are zero within 12 hours of adding the ammonia, then you are onto a winner

 

[OldMan47]

No need to top up the ammonia at 12 hours. Let it go the full 24 hours and it will be fine.

 

[Tropicoll]

Thanks guys. I didn't top up last night and I have movement on the Nitrites!

Fishless Cycle Day 18 on 54L/11.8 Imp Gallon (14.2 US Gal) Tank:
10 plants, 1 small skull decoration, 1 small bogwood, no extra chemicals, apparently 1 snail!
API Master Liquid test kit

Test time 0700 - 24 hours after adding ammonia.
Water Temperature 25 deg C

Ph 7.8
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0.5
Nitrate: 5-10 although, strangely this hasn't gone up yet...
1.25 Ml Ammonia added to bring ppm to 4.

Happy with that! now just got to get the little buggers processing the lot. I'll test as close to 1900 tonight as I can and post the results.