Si's Fishless Cycle

[PDSimon]

I am keeping an eye on the pH just incase it does drop... I could always put the rock back in if it gets a bit low

Could do, but I bet it won't up it now based on what you've said about the bucket it's in

It's all down to what fish you're going to want to add! Any closer to making a decision on the fish?

I was having a think yesterday and decided there was far to much choice in the books but not enough choice at the LFS's

I want to be careful as well.. I am a beginner but I don't really want tetras like everyone else seems to want hah.

I was thinking oh I definately want to have some sort of shrimp in the bottom layers of the tank but then thought something like clown loach look awesome too...! They would look really good swimming around in the sand so really unsure. As soon as I finish this uni project which will be in a week or two i'm going to have a look at some bigger but further away stores and see what they have to offer.

 

[kaivalagi]

I am keeping an eye on the pH just incase it does drop... I could always put the rock back in if it gets a bit low

Could do, but I bet it won't up it now based on what you've said about the bucket it's in

It's all down to what fish you're going to want to add! Any closer to making a decision on the fish?

I was having a think yesterday and decided there was far to much choice in the books but not enough choice at the LFS's

I want to be careful as well.. I am a beginner but I don't really want tetras like everyone else seems to want hah.

I was thinking oh I definately want to have some sort of shrimp in the bottom layers of the tank but then thought something like clown loach look awesome too...! They would look really good swimming around in the sand so really unsure. As soon as I finish this uni project which will be in a week or two i'm going to have a look at some bigger but further away stores and see what they have to offer.

Clown Loach get BIG, too big for a 125L...other loach would work though...

If I was starting out with what I have seen and know about the limitations of a 125L tank I would get a few (3 maybe, 1 M and 2 F) Bolivian Ram in there, a pH of 7.4 would be fine for them...and they're generally very good with community fish too i.e. small shoaling fish probably wont get nipped or go missing

For me it would be something like this:

• 3 x Bolivian Ram (1 M / 2 F, and maybe have them breeding)
• 10 x Penguin Tetra (interesting zig-zagging patterns I think)
• 1 x Bristlenose Plec (a male with whiskers)
• 5 x Amano Shrimp (big enough not to get eaten)

If more fish can be added then I'd just add more of the same

 

[PDSimon]

I am keeping an eye on the pH just incase it does drop... I could always put the rock back in if it gets a bit low

Could do, but I bet it won't up it now based on what you've said about the bucket it's in

It's all down to what fish you're going to want to add! Any closer to making a decision on the fish?

I was having a think yesterday and decided there was far to much choice in the books but not enough choice at the LFS's

I want to be careful as well.. I am a beginner but I don't really want tetras like everyone else seems to want hah.

I was thinking oh I definately want to have some sort of shrimp in the bottom layers of the tank but then thought something like clown loach look awesome too...! They would look really good swimming around in the sand so really unsure. As soon as I finish this uni project which will be in a week or two i'm going to have a look at some bigger but further away stores and see what they have to offer.

Clown Loach get BIG, too big for a 125L...other loach would work though...

If I was starting out with what I have seen and know about the limitations of a 125L tank I would get a few (3 maybe, 1 M and 2 F) Bolivian Ram in there, a pH of 7.4 would be fine for them...and they're generally very good with community fish too i.e. small shoaling fish probably wont get nipped or go missing

For me it would be something like this:

• 3 x Bolivian Ram (1 M / 2 F, and maybe have them breeding)
• 10 x Penguin Tetra (interesting zig-zagging patterns I think)
• 1 x Bristlenose Plec (a male with whiskers)
• 5 x Amano Shrimp (big enough not to get eaten)

If more fish can be added then I'd just add more of the same

Thats a good example

I'm not a big fan of suckermouths.. I do want something to clean algae though

 

[kaivalagi]

Thats a good example

I'm not a big fan of suckermouths.. I do want something to clean algae though

What's not to like about this guy, old pic but you get the idea (only gets to 4" max):


You could get some Oto's? I have 3 but they ideally need to go into a tank after it has matured a little and has some algae to feed on etc. They'll still sucker fish but are very small:

To be honest though they unlikely to make a big dent in any algae, mine eat it as they are still going strong after a few months but they haven't made any noticeable difference to the amount in my tank. Myabe more than 3 would?

Another option for algae eating is some type of snails...but you'd have to watch out for mass reproduction...Amano Shrimp are also said to help but the jury is out on that one for me.

Don't make the big mistake of a Chinese Algae Eater...read up on them, they get big too. A siamese Algae eater may work, but again read up first...they're not the golden ticket to algae prevention...none of these type of fish are really.

Honestly though, you are best to try and get to grips with algae and fixing the source of any algae problems rather than trying to fix it with something that may eat it. Most algae eaters only like certain types so the chances are if you have algae it may not help all that much anyway, plus more fish = more fish waste which will feed algae too . The best way to prevent algae is to keep feeding down so no excess food is less over (very small meals once a day is probably best to begin with), making sure your lighting isn't on too long (7 hours or less is my rule) and try to stop any direct sunlight getting to the tank. You can also opt for a liquid fert to feed any plants you might have so thay hopefully out compete any algae present.

Hope that helps

 

[PDSimon]

Thats a good example

I'm not a big fan of suckermouths.. I do want something to clean algae though

What's not to like about this guy, old pic but you get the idea (only gets to 4" max):


You could get some Oto's? I have 3 but they ideally need to go into a tank after it has matured a little and has some algae to feed on etc. They'll still sucker fish but are very small:

To be honest though they unlikely to make a big dent in any algae, mine eat it as they are still going strong after a few months but they haven't made any noticeable difference to the amount in my tank. Myabe more than 3 would?

Another option for algae eating is some type of snails...but you'd have to watch out for mass reproduction...Amano Shrimp are also said to help but the jury is out on that one for me.

Don't make the big mistake of a Chinese Algae Eater...read up on them, they get big too. A siamese Algae eater may work, but again read up first...they're not the golden ticket to algae prevention...none of these type of fish are really.

Honestly though, you are best to try and get to grips with algae and fixing the source of any algae problems rather than trying to fix it with something that may eat it. Most algae eaters only like certain types so the chances are if you have algae it may not help all that much anyway, plus more fish = more fish waste which will feed algae too . The best way to prevent algae is to keep feeding down so no excess food is less over (very small meals once a day is probably best to begin with), making sure your lighting isn't on too long (7 hours or less is my rule) and try to stop any direct sunlight getting to the tank. You can also opt for a liquid fert to feed any plants you might have so thay hopefully out compete any algae present.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Its funny, my brother keeps his lights on for 12 hours! and he has barely no algae. He keeps fake plants too...

I think its because its in the hallway so natural light barely touches it.

 

[kaivalagi]

Cheers

Its funny, my brother keeps his lights on for 12 hours! and he has barely no algae. He keeps fake plants too...

I think its because its in the hallway so natural light barely touches it.

Yeah, it will also depend on how much light (strength i.e. watts per gallon) and what type (narrow/broad spectrum). If he's using LEDs for example they don't help growth of normal plants or algae as much as say T5 tubes...

One more thing I forgot to mention, really good water circulation throughout the tank helps a great deal too...

Me thinks your brother is rather lucky regardless Must be a well matured tank and he must clean it regularly (glass with magnet cleaner, vac up left over crud etc) I would expect.

 

[PDSimon]

Cheers

Its funny, my brother keeps his lights on for 12 hours! and he has barely no algae. He keeps fake plants too...

I think its because its in the hallway so natural light barely touches it.

Yeah, it will also depend on how much light (strength i.e. watts per gallon) and what type (narrow/broad spectrum). If he's using LEDs for example they don't help growth of normal plants or algae as much as say T5 tubes...

One more thing I forgot to mention, really good water circulation throughout the tank helps a great deal too...

Me thinks your brother is rather lucky regardless Must be a well matured tank and he must clean it regularly (glass with magnet cleaner, vac up left over crud etc) I would expect.

edit: I meant coolie loach not clown loach, they still grow to 11cm though

haha no, its so mature that he doesn't even have to do water changes every week! I don't think he cleans it more than average either Just lucky I guess. Its a fluval tank so its some sort of double fluval tubing (the older ones though..) if your curious.

I put the venturi valve in and its been going for a while now. Doesn't really bother me when sleeping and adds a lot of circulation of air..


I've updated the main post by the way. Just below 2ppm I think. I thought it might have had a bit more of a jump with the media added but that was just a guess.

 

[PDSimon]

Forgot to test for nitrites, doh!

Looking good though, its changed a lot in colour since last time. few more minutes wait before I post though

 

[waterdrop]

Looking good for day 11 or so. A little bit of ammonia drop and some nitrites now beginning to show. That is good. A fishless cycle can indeed (eventually) cause the pH to drop (the end product, nitrate, has nitric acid as a component) and once the pH drops to 6.2 the cycle usually stalls and finally stops processing at pH=6.0 or so. A big water change usually fixes it because the tap water is usually much higher pH. pH drops mostly happen a good deal later in a fishless cycle than where you are.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[PDSimon]

Looking good for day 11 or so. A little bit of ammonia drop and some nitrites now beginning to show. That is good. A fishless cycle can indeed (eventually) cause the pH to drop (the end product, nitrate, has nitric acid as a component) and once the pH drops to 6.2 the cycle usually stalls and finally stops processing at pH=6.0 or so. A big water change usually fixes it because the tap water is usually much higher pH. pH drops mostly happen a good deal later in a fishless cycle than where you are.

~~waterdrop~~

Cheers waterdrop, I was thinking about pH drops infact! You've read my mind.

I was thinking about ways to prevent it incase it happens but as you've said if it does happen I can do a water change. Is it worth buying any pH buffer kits(might not be the right term)? I think I need to get a hardness testing kit as API doesn't test for that.

Also I was wondering, because the rock I put in the tank seems to be 7.4 in the bucket, in theory ocean rock rises the pH. If it only rises it a bit would it be ok to put back in the tank? It might help keep the pH a bit higher incase it did drop?

Probably not but just curious. The water doesn't pump around in the bucket so probably doesn't have the same effect.

 

[PDSimon]

I really like the idea of a kulhi/coolie loach. Anyone got an opinions on it?

 

[PDSimon]

uh oh, pH is going down

colour card is confusing as well

I don't know whether its 6.6 or 7 6.8 I guess..

Ammonia has gone to 0ppm and nitrite to 5ppm

What do I do

I could add the ammonia now (5ppm) or wait till tomorrow?

 

[waterdrop]

Hi Si, That dropped so fast that I'm going to recommend some action. Do you have any baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, aka bicarb) in the kitchen? Make sure its not baking powder (which might have other ingredients in it.) If you have some I'd just dose your 125L at about 2 tablespoons of baking soda. The added bicarbonate will dramatically bring up the pH towards the more optimal 8.0 to 8.4 that speed the bacteria the best. At the big water change when you reach the end of fishless cycling the bicarb will be taken out and you won't use it again after you get fish.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[PDSimon]

Hi Si, That dropped so fast that I'm going to recommend some action. Do you have any baking soda (sodium bicarbonate, aka bicarb) in the kitchen? Make sure its not baking powder (which might have other ingredients in it.) If you have some I'd just dose your 125L at about 2 tablespoons of baking soda. The added bicarbonate will dramatically bring up the pH towards the more optimal 8.0 to 8.4 that speed the bacteria the best. At the big water change when you reach the end of fishless cycling the bicarb will be taken out and you won't use it again after you get fish.

~~waterdrop~~

I'll have a look, although its not likely.

Shall I add 5ppm of ammonia now too?

Really appreciate your help by the way

edit: No bicarb. I can get some tomorrow. I think pH is about 6.8, it has tones of 7 and 6.6 so its really difficult to tell. I guess i'll just have to hope it doesn't drop too much by the time I get back from uni tomorrow.

 

[waterdrop]

What, you're not a baker and cook?

Yes, remember, always follow a fairly strict rule with ammonia dosing in your Add&Wait Fishless cycle: Have an "add-hour," a regular hour out of each 24 hours that will be your main time to run your 24-hour test set and record results and then to dose ammonia. IF ammonia has dropped to zero ppm any time in the previous 24 hours, then you wait and add ammonia at this "add-hour." Even if you were to perform a 12-hour test on ammonia and find it at zero ppm you would still wait for your add-hour before dosing up again. Got it?

Your pH has only dropped to 6.8, so the bacteria will still be active. Even if you don't have any bicarb, you'll still likely be ok for a few days (but continue testing of course) and we can perform a large water change (with good technique, as always) if the pH goes down to 6.2, where the cycle stalls.

~~waterdrop~~