SIP, my big momma shrimp, mother of colonies. Establishing first colony is hard!

AdoraBelle Dearheart

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I've had a rough time since starting my first tank last June/July. Heater blowing a fuse (three times!) broken air pump, lots of guppy fry born, some losses, battle with ich and later with worms, guppy fry getting sucked into canister filter (but most surviving!), filter output flooding my floor and draining half my tank... it's been a steep and often stressful learning curve.

Long post ahead, I'm sorry. I'd like to keep a record of my shrimp keeping progress. Re-visited my tank logs to remind myself how long it took to finally get a shrimp colony established.

My main tank is a 15 gal guppy/oto community tank, heavily planted. 20-25% water change every 10-14 days, has a small canister filter and a double sponge filter that has bio-media compartments. Nine adult guppies, several babies which get moved to a grow out tank periodically, and seven otocinclus.

8th July 2019: First fish added after a seeded, planted cycle. Heavily planted because I knew I'd want shrimp. I let the tank establish for a while and kept adding new plants now and then.

October 3rd, 2019. First batch of shrimp. Three red cherries, two blue diamonds. I lost one by the next day, but the others seemed to be doing okay, but lost more sporadically, without knowing why.

2nd of January 2020: I only had one shrimp left, a blue male.

January 9th 2020: I got a batch of five red cherry shrimp. I felt like I was failing at shrimp keeping, and questioned whether I should get more, but I felt bad for the lone remaining blue boy, and wanted to give him some company, and give it another try. Lost one by the next day, others survived for months, but no breeding, then would lose one now and again, for unknown reasons, again. They didn't die off all at once, would just lose one one month, then another a month later sort of thing.

1st Feb 2020: One big female looked berried to me, but never saw any babies.

18th Feb 2020: That last blue shrimp died, some red cherries remaining.

16th March 2020: Lost another red cherry, still had two large (female?) and two smaller, less red (males?) red cherries. No signs of berrying or babies.

3rd May 2020: I rescaped the tank a little, and could only find one large and one smaller red cherry shrimp. Looked like a big female and a male. Still no breeding, so I decided I wasn't knowledgeable enough for shrimp keeping yet, and that I wouldn't get any more until I'd figured out why my tank wasn't working for them.

Success!!!



29th May 2020- Stopped breathing when I looked in the tank... a small red shrimp! Not one of the adult pair, I couldn't believe it! Spent so long hunting for more, final count was five young shrimp, plus the two parents. Was over the moon that I finally had babies, eight months after I first added shrimp! Weekly gravel vac/water change becomes even more challenging, with careful syphoning into white buckets and checking for baby shrimp to rescue before dumping the water. Luckily, saving guppy fry from water changes has trained me well, but baby shrimp are even more challenging to avoid and to spot in the bucket!

15th June 2020: Shrimp explosion! Relatively. Counted around 12 young shrimp, plus the parents. Did they just colour up enough/get big enough to come out of hiding, for me to be able to spot them? 14 shrimp is a pretty small colony, but it seemed as though there were shrimp everywhere, when compared to only ever having 4-5 in there before!

27th and 28th of June 2020: Huge re-scape. I wanted to add some more substrate, and move all of the plants, since I had some large plants at the front, smaller plants at the back, and the hornwort and duckweed was taking over the tank. I'd delayed it since finding the baby shrimp, but now they were big enough to avoid, and spot easily in the bucket if they did get sucked up while cleaning the gravel. Set aside two days to move all of the plants to another cycled tank, using the same water from main tank. Deep cleaned the gravel over those two days, moving hiding decor and floating plants to one side of the tank and cleaning the other side one day, then moving them to do the other side the next day.
Slowly added and mixed in more gravel, one small handful at a time, gently nudging shrimp and guppies away from the spot I was working on. Put plants back in, slightly better arranged.

Had a surprise though once I'd removed all of the plants and began gravel vac-ing - tiny, almost completely see through baby shrimp everywhere!! Made the rescape super challenging! Had to carefully syphon into white buckets, nudging shrimp away gently with the syphon, then carefully sifting and netting the removed water and rescuing shrimp from the buckets and putting them back in the tank. They were almost invisible among the mulm too, so had to let things settle and look for movement, rescue, then stir, pour some into a different bucket, wait for that settle, look for movement... the whole process took hours longer than it would have without those tiny shrimp, but I didn't care at all, was so delighted that I finally had lots of babies!

July 2020: Shrimp have put on a lot of growth, some seem to be fully grown, or close to it. Can see saddles and the rounded back end that females have on some of them. Hard to know the number since the tank is so heavily planted, but I can usually count 30 or so without searching too hard, so I think there are between 40-50 shrimp in there now. All from that single large female I had left!

23rd July 2020: I found that big momma original female dead this morning. Far more gutted over losing a shrimp than I ever knew I could be. Looks as though she had some trouble moulting perhaps, can see a line around the mid-section where the moult usually splits. Actually bought to tears when I found her, and will bury her in the garden. I'm very grateful to her though, she gave me my first colony, and I think her daughters will be breeding very soon.
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One of her daughters, taken this morning.
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Not the clearest photo, sorry, but all the red bits you can see in the gravel are shrimp.

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Pic of main tank, taken yesterday, 22/07/20
 

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I got myself some cherry shrimp for the first time the other month and love them. They add a whole new dimension to the hobby. I'm quite lucky to have the right water parameters to keep them as I did absolutely no research :blush:
Speaking of which, have you looked into your tapwater parameters? I believe problems with molting can be down to too much/little calcium?
 
I got myself some cherry shrimp for the first time the other month and love them. They add a whole new dimension to the hobby. I'm quite lucky to have the right water parameters to keep them as I did absolutely no research :blush:
Speaking of which, have you looked into your tapwater parameters? I believe problems with molting can be down to too much/little calcium?

I've been wondering the same thing since I started browsing here yesterday. I don't really know much about the water parameters here, have always known it to be a hardwater area, lots of limescale, stuff like that, and didn't know that what the water company calls hard water is not the same as in the hobby. Reading that here yesterday is the first time I've come across that, confusing the hell out of me! My LFS is pretty good, and I trust the owner there, and since their water is like mine, I trusted him when he said it would be good for guppies and shrimp. Want to find out more about the water here, and how to test my tank, and what exactly gH, kH, TDS etc all mean, but my brain is hurting and refusing to understand! Will keep researching until it clicks. Maybe if I copy paste water company results here, someone will be able to tell me what it means?

I usually see nice, complete moults lying around though, so fingers crossed they will be okay in my water. I sucked up three perfect moults yesterday during a water change, it's almost eerie, you can see every little leg.
I love my cherry shrimp. Congratulations on your first shrimp! :clap:

What camera do you use?

Thank you, I'm so excited! Love mine too. They're just as much fun to watch as the fish.
Most of these photos I was using a Fujifilm X-T10. I also use a Nikon D40
 
Okay, copied down info for water in my area, don't know what much of it means, or what different websites now mean when they say hard or soft water fish - are they talking about what water companies/the general population calls hard, or what fish keepers call hard? Why are they different?

Website says it's classed as hard.
Calcium 89 mg/I Ca
Magnesium 7.4 mg
fluoride 0.11 mg/I

Total hardness 253 mg/ I CaCO3
18 degrees Clark (UK)
25 degrees French
15 degrees German

187 Alkalinity mg/I CaCO3
192 Alkalinity mg/I HCO3
48 Chloride mg/ I NO3
22 Nitrate mg/ I NO3
2 Phosphate mg/ I P
92 Sulfate mg/ I SO4
35 Sodium mg / I Na
597 Conductivity
pH 7.45

From my own water tests, pH is usually 8 right out of the tap, lowers a bit after 24 hours/aeration.
 
That is perfect water hardness for every livebearer :) Get a 30 gallon tank, get 3 mollies and 3 swordtails and I promise you hours of enjoying them and you could get corydoras aeneus too :)
I have kept livebearers over a year now.
Said, your water is too hard for ottos unfortunately, when you'd get your 30 gallon tank give the ottos away and get a bristle nose pleco.
 
Otocinclus catfish are soft water fish and guppies are hard water fish. Bad combination IMO.
I believe @JuiceBox52 has some ottos, and I suppose she will be able to put in more info.
Argh, so frustrating! I've seen Otos and Guppies recommended as tankmates all over the internet, why do people always suggest them together if they're not compatible? And why don't more people talk about the importance of water hardness along with the nitrogen cycle? I've been told so many times that hardness/softness is only really an issue with fish that really like the water to be at either extreme, and that the fish I wanted were mid-range enough to be fine in my water. Not angry or frustrated with you, BTW! I mean the amount of misleading info out there, and how hard it is to get things right, with different sources all saying different things, it's so hard to know which ones to trust.

I've tried so hard to get all this right. I thought I was ahead of the game by having a good grasp of the nitrogen cycle, lots of live plants, and a quarantine tank. I knew enough not to put fish into an uncycled tiny tank, and how to do tests and water changes when the bioload is building or changes. But I didn't do enough research into hardness/kH/gH, and I might have killed fish because of it. The learning curve just gets steeper and steeper, and I feel like I've failed.

The otos seem to be thriving in my tank, while I had much harder time with guppies, especially in the beginning. So much so I almost gave up the hobby. Added 5 otos in November, lost one within 24 hours, four are still doing well. Added four more in early June, one died a week later (had an injured tail when I bought it home from the store, and they were all small and thin) but others filled out well and are fat, active and happy now.

I had a hard time getting guppies to survive at first though, and the advice I got was that since my water parameters and feeding were good (0 ammonia or nitrites, nitrates between 5-20 ppm) that guppies are weak from being inbred/farm raised, and to keep trying. Maybe that was wrong, and the hardness was killing them?
What species of Ottos are they @AdoraBelle Dearheart?
I have no idea. Every fish shop here just lists them as otos, or common otos. I'm aware that there are different subspecies, but some of the differences are so subtle, I think you'd need an expert to be able to tell the difference between some of them.
Yeh do that and copy in @essjay - I hear is very knowledgeable with water chemistry!
Thank you so much. @mbsqw1d, you've really helped me out a lot!I hope @essjay doesn't mind explaining a little for me. I was always great at biology, weak with physics, and even weaker on chemistry.
 
That is perfect water hardness for every livebearer :) Get a 30 gallon tank, get 3 mollies and 3 swordtails and I promise you hours of enjoying them and you could get corydoras aeneus too :)
I have kept livebearers over a year now.
Said, your water is too hard for ottos unfortunately, when you'd get your 30 gallon tank give the ottos away and get a bristle nose pleco.
I really appreciate the help, despite my frustrated ramblings, thank you!
I do love the livebearers, which is why I wanted guppies so badly, they're just so pretty, and nice little characters. Have produced about 150-200 guppy fry over the last year, most of which have been great, and my LFS takes them. My dad has a 55 gallon that has black mollies with silver (but not a true dalmation) which breed steadily, plus some platies, tetra and bronze cories. Since it's a community, only a few fry tend to make it, but that's fine with us. The three original black mollies are a good 2-3 inches and five or so years old now.
 
Yeh me too, Chemistry was beyond me, I just wanted to play with the bunsen burners :devil:
I believe the info about fish concerning hardness generally goes off the gdh (German Degrees Hardness) of which yours is 15. You dont really need to know much more than that. And don't be hard on yourself (pun not intended)... you've researched loads! Tbh i thought i knew what i was doing until they started taking about water hardness on here. I just got lucky that mine is mid-range (7ish i think).

Your plants will certainly do well with harder water as they require those electrolytes to grow well. I might be wrong, but your tank water could be lower than your tap water due to your plants absorbing some of the calcium etc... again, more knowledgeable folk will hopefully advise
 
I have moderately hard water but I like soft water fish like tetras and cory so I use RO water to reduce the hardness in my tetra tank. It is more work doing weekly water changes. Lugging around 5 gallon jugs of RO water is a pain but I want my fish to be healthy. I have reduced my water's hardness from 134ppm to 60 ppm. My other tanks are all hard water for platys, guppies and mollies.
 
Well, this is disheartening. I love those little otos, and they seem to be doing so well, but RO water just isn't feasible for me to be doing right now either. I don't want to send them back to the store, since they were thin and frail when I got them, store tanks aren't coated in algae.

Man, this bloody hobby. I don't even know what to do anymore. I cannot afford to buy/set up/house a 30-50 gallon right now like people are suggesting, I just wanted a sweet little guppy and shrimp tank. Big enough for them, not so big that I can't manage it/fit in my house. Guppies and otos are recommended as tankmates all over the place, I get them and love them, and find out I'm apparently killing them and have to get rid of them.
 

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