Single Cichlids Rather Than Pairs

[scouse_andy]

You've probably read a couple of my threads over the last few weeks asking for advice about stocking my new 240 litre tank (48x16x18). I've really appreciated all the comments and spent quite a lot of time reading up on recommendations so apologies for yet another stocking thread but my ideas keep evolving!

I'm now wondering whether I would be better to get a few single cichlids rather than pairs/small groups to lower the potential agression levels in the tank. I am not set up for raising fry and don't really have the time or space to invest in grow out tanks etc etc.

How would the following work:

1 rotkeil sev
1 rainbow cichlid
1 ellioti
10 columbian tetras
Plus a group (5/6) of Cupid cichlids OR more likely Bolivian Rams to maybe get a couple of pairs out of and pass the rest on to somebody else?

I know I said I didn't want too much agression and my understanding is that a couple of pairs of cupids or a couple of pairs of bolivian rams with established territories wouldn't cause too much trouble in the tank. Am I right about this?

At one level it seems a bit sad to have single specimens of some of these fish when they naturally like to pair off and I'd miss out on seeing some of their natural behaviour. However, I'm feeling that there is much less likely to be complications and, from what I've read, they would lead a happy existence as a bunch of singletons in the tank together.

I've found local shops which stock all of these fish apart from cupids, I may keep looking but may well settle for bolivians instead.

Am I right in thinking that I would be pretty well stocked with that lot? I've read a couple of threads on here recently where posters have said that fully stocked cichlid tanks often work better than understocked ones.

If I would be slightly understocked could you suggest another cichlid that would be compatible? I like the look of festivums and also saw some nice geos (steindachneri and tapajos sp red) today although I appreciate that they are a cichlid which prefer to be in a group and with the cupids/rams the bottom of the tank would already be quite busy. Any other possibilities? (pH 7.6 hard water btw)

I've managed to sort my scape out at least so there are loads of hiding places low down and some bogwood reaches up high to break sight lines. I've got sand substrate, a bunch of silk plants and quite a lot of bogwood - I found an amazing piece at the LFS today so have that soaking - will upload a pic or two when I get a chance.

Thanks for reading and for any advice you can pass my way

 

[mark4785]

I have a lone male German Blue Ram and he seems very happy to be the only dwarf cichlid in the tank (120 Ltrs). I think the introduction of another dwarf cichlid would make him very angry lol.

I think in a 240 Ltr tank you should only be looking at introducing 1 pair of each type of dwarf cichlid. In my 120 ltr tank (which is half the volume, and presumably, width of your tank) I initially had a pair of bolivian rams and a pair of german blue rams and each pair had a territory that took up half the length/width of the aquarium and if one ventured out of it's own territory and into another it would get chased and pecked. When I observed this aggression I felt that I needed to upgrade the size of my aquarium and I feel a 240 ltr aquarium would have been enough to stop the 'fighting' that kept recurring between the 2 pairs.

So my suggestion to you is look into obtaining 2 pairs maximum, preferably of the same species as this will also limit potential aggression.

 

[snowflake311]

Pairs are not always happy and in love and if you get same sex then they will never be in love. A small group can get messy 3 is the worst number because 2 end up beating on the odd man out.

Most my cichlids are onlys. I have an angel pair they get along but can get nippy with tank mates. My discus are in a good size group of 7 and I have no problems with them. I do have 2 uarus and 2 severums they get a long ok most of the time.

I have found with cichlids you never know who they will get along till you try.

 

[hamfist]

I'm a great advocate of singletons of most species of cichlids when attempting to mix them in a community.
Having more than one of a species in a tank increases the chances massively that you'll either get a breeding pair forming, or that they will develop a real dislike for each other. Both scenarios end up with increased aggression within the tank.
Singletons are usually, IMO, less stressed in a tank (which is an artificial environment anyway) than a pair.

The only reasonably common cichlid species that I would not want to keep as singletons would be discus, small uaru (adults are fine on their own though) and eartheater species from the surinamensis-complex of species (altifrons, surinamensis, abalios etc). These eartheaters are naturally very "bickery" and need either a shoal to spread it all out, or to be kept as a breeding pair. In my experience, a singleton is still quite bickery, just with all the other fish in the tank instead.

G.steindachneri are fine as singletons,and a single male will be very happy. In fact, steinies can be very aggressive to conspecifics. Even when breeding, it's advisable to have a few females with a single male to spread out the male to female aggression. However, a single steinie male is an outstanding cichlid community member, and will probably be completely peaceful to other species. Mine certainly is. He has, in fact, happily palled up with my single Satanoperca leucosticta (who himself was a terror with another I had originally).

Andy ... as to your stocking plans, I'd say for a 240, one rotkeil (not a green, red or gold), one rainbow, one and one ellioti, your group of colombians and either a g.steindachneri male or a couple of dwarf cichlids of different species would be a good stock, providing colour, character and (hopefully) peace. You would need decent filtration for this though, as that is pushing the load of a 240 litre quite hard, IMO.
Also, in the end though cichlids are all individuals and can thwart your best plans !!

 

[scouse_andy]

Thanks for all your replies. Keeping single specimens of most of these species, particularly in a tank this size, does seem the sensible thing to do.

Hamfist, I'm going to leave the geophagus for the time being, I understand what you said about a single male steiney working well but I think I'd rather have a bit more going on at the bottom of the tank. If I ever get a wider (and hopefully longer) tank then I'll look into getting a small group of these - really like the tapajos orange heads.

The tank has a new external 1200lph filter plus an internal 700lph fluval so I'm hoping I'll be ok with 20% weekly water changes here.

I quite fancy getting a group of 6 bolivian rams and hoping for 2 pairs before passing the other fish on and stocking these with i rottie, 1 rainbow, 1 ellioti and the columbians. This is what I'll be looking to get once the tank has finished cycling and then hope all get along but as you mention, Hamfist, all cichlids are individuals.

 

[hamfist]

The tank has a new external 1200lph filter plus an internal 700lph fluval so I'm hoping I'll be ok with 20% weekly water changes here.

That's almost 8x water turnover per hour, which is great.

 

[Davo86]

Agree with above Single specimen mixed setups are something I have advocated,

Personally with this setup i would use the Rainbow cichlids as secondary dithers and have

1 rotkeil sev
1 ellioti (would also personally swap this for something like a female Nicaragua or acara)
4-5 rainbow cichlid
10 columbian tetras

 

[scouse_andy]

Agree with above Single specimen mixed setups are something I have advocated,

Personally with this setup i would use the Rainbow cichlids as secondary dithers and have

1 rotkeil sev
1 ellioti (would also personally swap this for something like a female Nicaragua or acara)
4-5 rainbow cichlid
10 columbian tetras

Thanks for the advice, is there a particular reason why you would go for a female nic etc. rather than the ellioti or just personal preference? I will have a read up on nicaraguans, if I could find one that coloured up anything like Wills' then I'd be all for that.

Also as far as the secondary dithers go, I kind of thought that I could achieve that with the bolivians and I quite fancied something vaguely geo like and these are mikrogeophagus. Would the rams also act as secondary dithers? Are the rainbows potentially an issue if they pair up and spawn as they're likely to be a bit more aggressive than rams?

Really thankful for all the advice and I actually feel pretty certain at long last that I know my stocking (more or less!).

 

[Davo86]

Mainly down to size and temperament really, Nicas and Severums always seem to do well and complement each other nicely with the nica taking the low ground and the Sev taking the higher levels, They are also are guaranteed to get to a nice size giving you two contrasting centrepeice fish,

My Ellioti on the other hand has since day one always been tormenting or bickering with something, IME they are a true central american cichlid in the sense of throwing their weight about trying to display their dominance.

The Rams could be classed as a secondary dither but I personally would not add them to the same tank as a T.Ellioti or any CA cichlid tbh, I had to rehome my adult Keyhole pair due to the aggression from the Ellioti towards them and I can't see them thriving in that kind of setup.

Rainbows on the other hand are just about big enough to hold their own but small enough not to pose a threat, They also seem to do better IMO when kept in a small group, and something like a hardy plec would be all you'd need to halt the spawning process as they would in most cases eat the eggs soon after they were laid. In fairness though IMO the larger cichlids maywell overpower the Rainbows to get to the eggs

 

[scouse_andy]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply, Davo.

You're persuading me on the nicaraguan, definitely need to do some reading up on them. The idea of 2 very different quite big centrepiece fish in different areas of the tank is right up my street.

I had read differing views on ellioti, some people say they're very peaceful, others say they give no end of trouble and it may be because they've crossbred with firemouths. So I'm starting to rule them out.

A group of rainbows sounds good, would it be best to aim for 2m 3f or is it really not that crucial? Also where in the tank are they likely to hang out with a nicaraguan around? Bottom or perhaps nearer the middle?

From the little I've read on nicas they are very easy to sex - even I can get these right but at what kind of size is it obvious as they look fairly drab as juvies. Would prefer to buy a fairly young female and enjoy seeing her grow. Can't say I've ever seen these in any of my LFS but may have overlooked if they had juvies in. Are they widely available?

I did wonder if the bolivians would enjoy a tank in which they were the smallest cichlid so I can understand what you're saying about the rainbows being better suited.

I don't need to be told twice to buy a plec, I've always loved keeping these and I'll have a good think about an L nunber which would keep to a sensible size and be robust enough to be out and about in this kind of tank.

Davo, it was actually some of your advice in other people's threads regarding stocking single specimens rather than groups that got me to the stocking plans I currently have so thanks for that.

BTW - what is the fish in your avatar pic? some kind of geo? Looks stunning.

 

[njstockley]

looks like we're still at the same stage andy!

i agree with whats been said already - single cichlids as centrepieces make a great statement. i've found my 3 - a sev, a jd (currently being housed, and closely monitored in my community tank whilst water stats stable), and reserved a female nicaraguan at the lfs! i saw the name on the tank before i saw her - they are very plain when young but seriously great loking fish when older. i think they are fairly available, its just so easy to overlook them!

are you settled on the shoaling fish yet? im still struggling there as want something with loads of colour and that are quite active - toying with the idea of tiger barbs - but want to stay with the ca/sa theme..! never seen colombians in the shop so when they get them in seeing them in the flesh might convince me.

when do you reckon you will start stocking? is the tank cycling?

 

[hamfist]

My Ellioti on the other hand has since day one always been tormenting or bickering with something, IME they are a true central american cichlid in the sense of throwing their weight about trying to display their dominance.

S'funny, that's been my exact experience with nics. They have always been the most bolshy, bickering PITAs for me. I shall not own one again.

 

[scouse_andy]

Hi Nick,

Yes I guess we are at similar points, I do feel as if I'm getting my head around the stocking and fine tuning things now though.

I'm more and more keen on the nicaraguan the more I read, will be keeping a lookout in the LFS from now on for these. Where are you based by the way? What size is the female you've reserved and are you sure on the sex?

I'm getting on with my scaping, saw a stunning piece of bogwood in the LFS yesterday so it's had a good soak and it needed a bit of cutting to squeeze in the tank - it's a lovely root reaching the top of the tank with 'legs' reaching three quarters of the way across the tank and offers loads of low hiding places. I have some silk plants coming in the post and when they're here I'll get some pictures uploaded.

As for the cycle, I'm doing a fishless cycle with household ammonia. I inherited an old external and the mature media was kept wet overnight before I picked the tank up so the filter was off for about 24 hours. I tested after a few days and the cycle seemed quite advanced with barely a trace of ammonia. I dosed what I thought was 5ppm but when I tested the next day the ammonia was off the scale so I may have overdosed and slowed things down. The ammonia is coming down (albeit slowly) but the nitrites are always zero and this stage normally takes the longest IME. To complicate things further I've bought a new external during the week and transfered most of the old media into this and cranked the temp right up. Short answer - I don't really know where I am up to but it is clearly some way along! I'll just be patient and see.

As far as dither fish go, I've kept columbian tetra before in a group of 6 or 8 (can't remember which). They have red fins and are shiny silver in LFS but will really colour up with a shimmering irridescent blue body with bright red fins. They get to a good 2 to 2 and a half inches and are very quick around the tank when they shoal, it helps to keep the biotope too. I did consider tiger barbs but the missus really doesn't like them and they do have a reputation for being a bit nippy - could potentially cause problems for the rotkeil but that is purely my speculation. Seen columbians in most of the LFS I've been in recently so they are pretty readily available - I'm in Oxfordshire btw.

As to when I'll stock, I've got the week off work in 2 weeks' time - half term holidays are one of the few perks of being a teacher - so I'd love to get started then but I will not rush the cycle. The one discipline that fishkeeping has taught me above all others is patience - something that does not come naturally to me.

 

[scouse_andy]

My Ellioti on the other hand has since day one always been tormenting or bickering with something, IME they are a true central american cichlid in the sense of throwing their weight about trying to display their dominance.

S'funny, that's been my exact experience with nics. They have always been the most bolshy, bickering PITAs for me. I shall not own one again.

hmmm.... I guess it comes down to the personality of the individual fish. I suppose on this one I'll just have to go with what may well work and see if it does. I am veering towards the nicaraguan but would be interested in the experience of others who have kept female nics in a similar setup and if it is a common issue then I may well rethink.

Oh forgot to add - I do like JDs, Nick. I saw some really cute juvies locally but it wouldn't work out in my tank, you have a little bit more space to play with however so may well be ok.

 

[Davo86]

With regard to the temperament of Nics, they are generally regarded as one of the most peaceful CA cichlids, however each cichlid has its own unique character so your never going to get the same outcome with each specimen you own, Minxfishy for example kept a couple of females and one was particularly bad, however Wills has a female and I have a Male (my avatar btw) that has been no trouble at all and are doing great in setups alongside Severums and similar SA cichlids

My Nic has been in with the likes of Colombians, Buenos Airies, and Black Phantom tetras, which could all work in this kind of setup