Sick Rainbowfish?

[razorkai]

First off my tank details

Juwel Rio 180 with internal filter removed
Tetratec EX700 external filter
Hydor external heater running at about 28 degrees C
Substrate is plain old Argos playsand washed several times
I changed the standard Juwel Tubes to two 30w Arcadia Classica Daylight (apparently these are the same as the Freshwater ones)
Both the tubes have arcadia reflectors on them.
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 40 ish

Stocked with

2 bristlenose plecs
4 Bosemani Rainbowfish
5 gold tetra
6 zebra loach
2 siamese algae eaters

I just moved all my fish from my old tank to my new tank without noticing this fish. The worst thing is, I turned the heater and filter off in the old tank last night, ready to sell. Is there any chance any bacteria may be left in the old filter? The water temp has only dropped about 4 degrees. Would love to salvage this as a hospital tank for this fish!

It has what looks like blood around its mouth area, the worst of which is level with to the front of one eye. It does not look like a flesh wound. The fish is behaving quite strangely as he's following the zebra loaches round and copying them, almost as if he thinks he is one of them! What is this and what can I do?

TIA

 

[WILDER]

Is tghe bleeding beneath the skin on the fish mouth.

 

[razorkai]

Is tghe bleeding beneath the skin on the fish mouth.

It's slightly further back from the mouth but does seem to be under the skin.

 

[WILDER]

Bleeding beneath the skin is h septicemia.
It will look like pools of blood beneath the skin.
How is the fish now.

 

[Colin_T]

Rainbows often develop the equivalent of sinus infections and develop a reddening around the snout, (between the top of the mouth and the eyes). The red inflammation is under the skin and is often associated with a virus or bacterial infection. It often occurs in poor water quality or dirty overcrowded tanks.
Do daily 50% water changes (using dechlorinated water) and gravel cleans for a couple of weeks and see how things go. Also don't feed them frozen bloodworms because that seems to encourage this problem.
Rainbowfish need lots of vegetable matter in their diet and should be fed a mainly vegetarian diet with small amounts of meat food added. Freeze dried bloodworms is fine just try not to feed too much of the frozen stuff.
You should also drop your temperature a couple of degrees. The warmer water will cause the tetras to age a lot more quickly and they will die of old age sooner. Warmer water will also encourage the harmful pathogens to grow faster.

 

[razorkai]

Wilder

It does not look quite so bad today. I tried to get a photo but my stupid camera phone has a red-eye funtion that cannot be turned off. Everytime I go to take a photo the red light scares the fish away

Colin

Interesting information. Do you really think I need 50% water changes in a new tank? I could understand the old one but the new one should be pretty clean I would have thought? I have dropped the temperature to 26 degrees as you suggested. I had it at this level as the old tank had a thermometer with a green area on it that was supposed to indicate the best temperature range. 28 degress was close to the middle, so I just went with the same on the new tank. What sort of vegetables do you suggest feeding them? I have used frozen food quite a lot recently as the rainbows just don't seem to be that bothered about flake food at all. There is also one dominant male of the four that is regularly chasing the other rainbows and sometimes the tetras too. Is this normal with rainbows?

There were six originally, but I had a couple of unexplained deaths which I think he may have had something to do with. The new tank is a lot bigger with more hiding space as there are a lot more plants. I'm hoping the rainbows are going to be happier now, the zebra loach certainly are! I may well add a couple more rainbows soon as I believe they are happier in a group?

 

[Colin_T]

I found the best way to clear the problem up was to do big daily water changes and gravel cleans. It might clear up in a new tank but I would still do daily water changes for a week or so just to make sure. The water changes will also help to dilute any ammonia that might occur while the filter is settling down.
You need to keep the tank and water spotless for a while after the fish has recovered otherwise they can come down with it again and in their weakened state they often succumb to the ailment.

Most tropical fish are fine in temperatures between 20 & 30C. The general average is 24-26C for most species. Angelfish, Discus & Uarus like it a bit warmer (around 26-28C). Stuff like neon tetras and danios do better when kept at cooler temperatures around 18-22C as they do not age as rapidly and the danios are less likely to become egg bound due to being kept in warm water all the time.
Because we keep a mixture of different fish in our aquariums it is best to compromise and try to keep it around the 24-26C mark.

It is a good idea to check the thermometer on occasions just to make sure it is reading correctly. I take mine to the LFS and compare the temperature it gives to the ones in the shop. Sometimes there is variation between the ones in the shop and you might have to check them all to find out which ones are reading the same, and which ones are reading way out. Then compare your thermometer's temp to the ones that have similar readings to each other.

Rainbows should eat anything that is offered to them. They are greedy buggars that will take flake, pellet, live or frozen food. If they are unwell they will not eat as readily and will often stop feeding until they are better. I used to feed mine with Hikari goldfish pellets (baby size), a marine flake and pellet, along with various fresh and frozen veges like peas, beans, corn, cucumber, pumpkin, apples, rockmelon. Generally whatever you have in the house with the exception of onions and potatoes. I don't use onions or potatoes for fish. I also kept a layer of duckweed on the surface of the tank water and the fish would eat this throughout the day. If they don't get enough vegetable matter in their diet they sometimes start to eat the plants in the tank.
The vegetable matter will also provide the fish with vitamin C and this is good for helping them fight off disease.

I don't feed rainbowfishes on frozen bloodworms because I found it caused too many problems to the fish. Most other fishes are fine when fed the bloodworms but not rainbows. An occasional feed once a week isn't too bad but I just stopped using it completely and found many health issues with the fish stopped when they no longer got the bloodworms. Freeze dried bloodworms don't seem to be a problem to the fish, only the frozen stuff.

Rainbowfishes occur in groups of hundreds out in the wild and do best in groups in the aquarium. I found the best number to keep in an aquarium was between 8 & 20 individual fish. However, it depends on tank size and a small tank is not going to be able to house 20 adult rainbows. But the minimum number I kept was 8 per tank. I usually tried to keep them in prs so I would have 4 males & 4 females in each tank. You can mix different species as long as they grow to a similar size. I found by having at least 8 fish in the tank there was less bullying by dominant males, and in fact it was rare to get one big male when there was a group in the tank. When there are only a couple of fish in the tank the dominant males will take over and the other fishes can become stressed or spook easily. I didn’t keep more than 20 adult rainbows in a tank because of tank size limitations. Obviously if you have a huge tank you can have more fish in it.
Often when rainbows are kept in small groups one male will grow slightly bigger & faster than the others and this male will dominate and bully the smaller individuals. Then the smaller fish don't grow and the bigger one does. They don't normally go out of their way to kill each other but the stress can weaken their immune system a bit making them more susceptible to health issues.
Melanotaenia boesemani is one of the more aggressive of the rainbows and big males will often chase smaller males around. If you can have males of similar size they seem to do a lot better and will spar with each other instead of picking on the smaller weaker individuals in the group. Glossolepis incisus is another rainbowfish where males can be quite boisterous towards smaller individuals.

 

[WILDER]

Wow colin that a long detailed reply.
Wish I could write like you.

 

[razorkai]

Wow that's a lot of information

I found the best way to clear the problem up was to do big daily water changes and gravel cleans. It might clear up in a new tank but I would still do daily water changes for a week or so just to make sure. The water changes will also help to dilute any ammonia that might occur while the filter is settling down.
You need to keep the tank and water spotless for a while after the fish has recovered otherwise they can come down with it again and in their weakened state they often succumb to the ailment.

Ok, I'll do big changes daily for a while. I'm fighting and slowly winning against green water at the moment, so this will probably help with that too.

Most tropical fish are fine in temperatures between 20 & 30C. The general average is 24-26C for most species. Angelfish, Discus & Uarus like it a bit warmer (around 26-28C). Stuff like neon tetras and danios do better when kept at cooler temperatures around 18-22C as they do not age as rapidly and the danios are less likely to become egg bound due to being kept in warm water all the time.
Because we keep a mixture of different fish in our aquariums it is best to compromise and try to keep it around the 24-26C mark.

Good to know, thanks for the advice!

It is a good idea to check the thermometer on occasions just to make sure it is reading correctly. I take mine to the LFS and compare the temperature it gives to the
ones in the shop. Sometimes there is variation between the ones in the shop and you might have to check them all to find out which ones are reading the same, and which ones are reading way out. Then compare your thermometer's temp to the ones that have similar readings to each other.

The heater I have now is an external hydor with a very clear temperature setting on it, so at least that allows me to compare with the temperature reading on the tank's thermometer to make sure they are the same. Never would have thought of checking at the lfs though.

Rainbows should eat anything that is offered to them. They are greedy buggars that will take flake, pellet, live or frozen food. If they are unwell they will not eat as readily and will often stop feeding until they are better. I used to feed mine with Hikari goldfish pellets (baby size), a marine flake and pellet, along with various fresh and frozen veges like peas, beans, corn, cucumber, pumpkin, apples, rockmelon. Generally whatever you have in the house with the exception of onions and potatoes. I don't use onions or potatoes for fish. I also kept a layer of duckweed on the surface of the tank water and the fish would eat this throughout the day. If they don't get enough vegetable matter in their diet they sometimes start to eat the plants in the tank.
The vegetable matter will also provide the fish with vitamin C and this is good for helping them fight off disease.

I'll try to vary their diet more from now on. Again, this is all very useful information

I don't feed rainbowfishes on frozen bloodworms because I found it caused too many problems to the fish. Most other fishes are fine when fed the bloodworms but not
rainbows. An occasional feed once a week isn't too bad but I just stopped using it completely and found many health issues with the fish stopped when they no longer got the bloodworms. Freeze dried bloodworms don't seem to be a problem to the fish, only the frozen stuff.

I was using the mixed quintet packs, which did have some frozen bloodworm in them. I usually break a few cubes up in a bag and feed some of the mix. That way there is a bit of variety.

Rainbowfishes occur in groups of hundreds out in the wild and do best in groups in the aquarium. I found the best number to keep in an aquarium was between 8 & 20 individual fish. However, it depends on tank size and a small tank is not going to be able to house 20 adult rainbows. But the minimum number I kept was 8 per tank. I usually tried to keep them in prs so I would have 4 males & 4 females in each tank. You can mix different species as long as they grow to a similar size. I found by having at least 8 fish in the tank there was less bullying by dominant males, and in fact it was rare to get one big male when there was a group in the tank. When there are only a couple of fish in the tank the dominant males will take over and the other fishes can become stressed or spook easily. I didn't keep more than 20 adult rainbows in a tank because of tank size limitations. Obviously if you have a huge tank you can have more fish in it.
Often when rainbows are kept in small groups one male will grow slightly bigger & faster than the others and this male will dominate and bully the smaller individuals. Then the smaller fish don't grow and the bigger one does. They don't normally go out of their way to kill each other but the stress can weaken their immune system a bit making them more susceptible to health issues.

So how many is ok for a 180 litre tank? I don't want a huge number as I would like to add some other fish too now that I have a bigger tank. The other rainbows definitely have stopped growing whilst the dominate male is a fair bit bigger. How do you sex them? He is the only one who displays the colours that bosemanis are famous for.

Thanks again for the advice Colin.

 

[Colin_T]

I would keep about 6-8 fish in a 180litre tank depending on how many other fish you plan on keeping. Most of my tanks were about the same size (180ltrs) but only had rainbows in and I kept between 10 & 20 (4-5inch fish) per 180ltr tank. If possible get 8 rainbowfish otherwise make sure you have at least 6 to try and limit the agro from the dominant male.

Male boesemani are blue and yellow/orange, females are primarily silver. Male rainbowfish develop longer more pointed fins. The first dorsal fin will usually touch or overlap the second dorsal fin in males but will never touch the second dorsal fin in females. Male boesemani will become much deeper (taller) in the body than females who remain more slender. Males will also show a dorsal blaze (coloured stripe running along their snout, between the top of their mouth and 1st dorsal fin) when displaying.

M. boesemani come from alkaline water so don't let the PH get too low. However, if the new tank does not have an established filter then try not to let the PH get too alkaline because ammonia is more toxic in alkaline water. Try to keep the PH about 7.0 until the filters have established. Then depending on what other fish are in the tank will determine how high you can raise the PH.

 

[razorkai]

Colin, or anyone else...

The fish that prompted me to make the original post is still the same if not worse. Today I got home from work and another rainbowfish was dead on the bottom. I hadn't even noticed anything wrong with her. Looking at my three remaining bosemani, they all seem to have fairly red gills. I know the water is fine because I have been doing 50% water changes per day as suggested to try and fix the original problem. I am not sure how normal the red gill thing is, biut I am worried that I'm going to lose them all. I haven't seen them rubbing against anything or flicking as would be symptom of gill flukes. Any thoughts? Incidentally, I have tried feeding crushed frozen peas on two occasions this week and they just don't seem interested. They are far more keen on frozen foods or flake. Strange!

 

[WILDER]

Red inflamed gills can be bad water quality to gill flukes.
But when fish have gill flukes they will usually flick and rub or labour breath or gasp for air at the surface.
Get you a link to bacterial gill rot.
http/www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hdgilld.htm

 

[razorkai]

Just managed to get a photo after a load of attempts. Doesn't show the red gills as I can't get the right angle for that. It does show the red nose though... I hope this helps diagnosis. I'll check out the link Wilder, thanks!

 

[Colin_T]

The photo does show a typical sinus infection. It also looks like the fish has a bit of excess mucous on its back above the head and its fins are clamped. There is a whitespot on its dorsal fin, which might be from the camera but even if it was whitspot it is a different problem to the sinus one and not a big issue at this stage.

I went through my notes about this problem and I used to treat the fish with rock salt. I made the tank very salty (about 40% seawater) and that cleared up most of the cases. However, if the fish were in bad shape then they often didn't respond. I used a glass floating hydrometer to measure the salt level but if you add 4-5 heaped tablespoons of rock salt per 20litres of water that will increase the salinity.
You will have to treat the rainbows in a seperate tank because very few fish will tolerate high levels of salt and the loaches definately won't. Keep the fish in the saline water for a couple of weeks and then start doing small 10% daily water changes to dilute the salt. When treating with salt I did partial water changes every couple of days using brackish water for the changes.

Some of the medications I have tried include Triple Sulpha, Protozin, copper based solutions, Phenoxine, Promethyasul, Sterazin & Nala-gram. None of those were successful in treating the problem.

The high salt levels will also kill off a lot of skin & gill parasites if the fish have any.

 

[razorkai]

Once again you have provided a wealth of information Colin, and I can't thank you enough How you can see all that from a photo that poor is beyond me! I still have my old tank, but will need to completely clear it out and start again to implement the salt plan. Is aquarium salt ok or does it have to be rock salt?

You mention doing 10% daily water changes to dilute the salt, but do you also recommend doing the same when introducing the salt? Do I need to treat all three of the rainbows or just the sick one? The male looks in pretty good shape apart from the slight reddening of the gills, and he does tend to harrass the other two so I would be a little worried about putting him in there with them.

How long would I need to store filter media in my current tank filter in order to safely start up the old tank again without having to wait for a cycle? So many questions!