Sick Goldfish, Please Help.

[RoseC]

Size of aquarium/pond - It's a bowl containing 15 litres of water.

Types of fish - Two fantail goldfish (two different types of fantail)

Number of fish and sizes - Two, small. One is about an inch long (Klaus) and the other maybe an inch 1/4 (Buster)

Filtration used and how do you clean it and how often - the man in the shop said we didn't need a filter as long as we did frequent water changes. We bought a carbon filter yesterday but it said not to use it with the medicine.

How much in the way of water changes and how often -- until they got sick we were changing a litre of water every two days, then we changed one litre every day (thinking it was dirty). We didn't do a change yesterday because we were concerned that we were doing the wrong thing.

Do you dechlorinate - we pre-treat the water for changing with King British Safe Guard.

Symptoms of sick fish ie, spots, behaviour, etc - at first they went off their food (King British Natural Goldfish Flake Food) and began surfacing for oxygen so we made more frequent water changes (the last five days, including today). Then Buster got a big red patch on the back of his body two days ago (I noticed it after the pet shop had closed). Google suggested it was either chlorine (but we dechlorinate) or bacteria from dirty water so we got King British Bacteria Control and treated the water last night. This morning I noticed that Buster was regurgitating everything he swallowed. I'm not sure Klaus has eaten anything - maybe only some very small flakes.

How long has the fish been sick and which medications are your currently using or recently used - As above.

Test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph both from the tap and tank - don't know.

Anything else you need us to know - We've only done exactly what the two pet shops (one where my boyfriend bought the equipment and the other where we bought the fish) have told us. When I google I get so many different answers I don't know what to do. We can't afford a bigger tank so the options could be changing their food, treating the water with something or getting more plants (they have about nine in there)? We don't have much money so I have to be sure what to do with them before we do it.

Please can someone help us? I'm so worried about them. They don't have problems swimming around or surfacing or diving. I've had goldfish before (when I was younger) and they never presented any of these problems.

 

[KittyKat]

Your pet shops have been lying to you or are just outright ignorant.

First step: increase water changes to 50% per day with dechlorinated water. Do the first one right now if you can.

Second step: read about cycling, cycling as in the nitrogen cycle. There is a lot of information on this website, in the beginner's resource.

Size of aquarium/pond - It's a bowl containing 15 litres of water.

In practice, goldfish require at least 4ft long aquarium, common goldfish require a 6ft aquarium. They grow to 10-16 inches and live for 20-25 years. This is why we do not recommend them to people!

Filtration used and how do you clean it and how often - the man in the shop said we didn't need a filter as long as we did frequent water changes. We bought a carbon filter yesterday but it said not to use it with the medicine.

Filtration is compulsory for almost all aquariums.

How much in the way of water changes and how often -- until they got sick we were changing a litre of water every two days, then we changed one litre every day (thinking it was dirty). We didn't do a change yesterday because we were concerned that we were doing the wrong thing.

In a cycled aquarium, water changes can be done on a weekly basis.. in yours, you should be doing about 50% every day.

Do you dechlorinate - we pre-treat the water for changing with King British Safe Guard.

Great.

Symptoms of sick fish ie, spots, behaviour, etc - at first they went off their food (King British Natural Goldfish Flake Food) and began surfacing for oxygen so we made more frequent water changes (the last five days, including today). Then Buster got a big red patch on the back of his body two days ago (I noticed it after the pet shop had closed). Google suggested it was either chlorine (but we dechlorinate) or bacteria from dirty water so we got King British Bacteria Control and treated the water last night. This morning I noticed that Buster was regurgitating everything he swallowed. I'm not sure Klaus has eaten anything - maybe only some very small flakes.

The problem is the small, uncycled aquarium without a source of oxygen for the fish. See above.. for the moment, reduce feeding to as much as they can eat in 30 seconds, once every other day.

Test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and ph both from the tap and tank - don't know.

This is the most important piece of equipment you could have. Get a liquid test set which will do ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH. Hardness test is a bonus. Most people here recommend API Master Test Kit. Test strips are not worth buying as they are inaccurate. Ammonia and nitrite over 0.25 ppm is VERY toxic to fish. Is it possible for you to get the fish shop to test the water until you can get your own kit? Get them to write down the exact readings, "the water is ok" is not good enough.

Welcome and hope we can help you get back on track!

 

[Kizz]

Too cut a long story very short . Your fish are very probably dieing from ammonia poisoning . Goldfish are NOT suitable for a 15L aquarium these fish can grow to around 12" in length regardless of what your LFS say they also do need a filter . The red patch you have noticed on one of your fish is an ammonia burn due to high level's off ammonia in your tank . Your fish are pretty much swimming in their own feces . If you cannot afford to upgrade to at least a 4 foot aquarium i would return them to the pet shop you bought them from and do some research . Have a look in the newbie section on fishless cycling and see what fish are suitable for your little tank . With a small heater you could keep a few small /colourfulll tropical fish in there

Thanks
Kizz

 

[RoseC]

Thanks. Have just sent boyfriend out for a water testing kit and with a sample of water for the shop to test now. He'll also be getting a better filter (shop #1 sold him one for a square/rectangular tank) and possibly an oxygen pump and also some better food. I hope the shop gives him better advice this time - it's the shop we bought them from and the people who said we didn't need a filter. We've changed a litre already this morning. Will change another litre before we leave.

Unfortunately we have to go away this weekend (unavoidable - wedding) so a friend is looking after them and won't be able to change 50% of the water. She'll change 1 litre every day and will only feed them once as you suggested. She knows about adding the anti chlorine treatment. I read on another forum that if you change too much of the water it can shock them. How do I go about changing 50%? Should I change 1 litre every few hours? I can do that for most of next week as I'm studying from home.

I am reluctant to return them to the shop because I doubt they'd keep them - the effort to make them well again means I think they'd just kill them.

Thank you both for your help.

 

[KittyKat]

Thanks. Have just sent boyfriend out for a water testing kit and with a sample of water for the shop to test now. He'll also be getting a better filter (shop #1 sold him one for a square/rectangular tank) and possibly an oxygen pump and also some better food. I hope the shop gives him better advice this time - it's the shop we bought them from and the people who said we didn't need a filter. We've changed a litre already this morning. Will change another litre before we leave.

Excellent. I would definitely recommend exploring more shops to see if you can find a more reliable one.. a good way to test them is to go in with some simple questions to which you already know the correct/fish-friendly answer.
I forgot to mention, but it may also help if you get some plants such as Elodea as those will use up ammonia. Problem is, goldfish eat plants so they will shred them. Anubias species are more goldfish proof, but also more expensive.

Unfortunately we have to go away this weekend (unavoidable - wedding) so a friend is looking after them and won't be able to change 50% of the water. She'll change 1 litre every day and will only feed them once as you suggested. She knows about adding the anti chlorine treatment. I read on another forum that if you change too much of the water it can shock them. How do I go about changing 50%? Should I change 1 litre every few hours? I can do that for most of next week as I'm studying from home.

It would be better then if your friend did not feed the fish over the weekend.
A 50% water change can be a shock, but it would still be better than toxic water. It is unlikely that your tank parameters are much different from the tap water, so I would personally be happy to do large changes for the sake of removing ammonia and nitrite.
Because of the very likely extremely high ammonia and nitrite (you will know for sure when you get the test kits), I would just do 50% in one go to get the levels down. You are right that smaller and more frequent water changes are better.. but it is also important to maintain the parameters under 0.25 ppm.
If I was at home, I would personally test the water every 6 hours and if I saw the parameters move toward 0.25 ppm, immediately do a 25-30% water change. You can do smaller ones more often, but it is possible for the fish to find the disturbance stressful.

I am reluctant to return them to the shop because I doubt they'd keep them - the effort to make them well again means I think they'd just kill them.

This could very well happen.. if you do want to swap them for more suitable fish, it might be better to do this after the problems are gone.

 

[Jenste]

Not to sound harsh but if you decide to keep them to "save them from the petstore killing them" but continue to keep them in that tiny tank then you will just be killing them yourself but very slowly and painfully - burned skin, physical deformities due to no room to grow, suffocating from lack of oxygen in the water....

Best bet is to return them then do a lot of research on forums such as this - we do not make money off you and we give up our free time to try and help you and your fish.

Fish keeping is actually a somewhere expensive hobby, especially in the beginning - you said you didn't have much money do this should be something you seriously consider before moving forward. And you will have to purchase a larger tank even if u decide to continue keeping - a 15 liter bowl is too small for anything really

 

[KittyKat]

Any updates?

 

[RoseC]

Any updates?

Yes Oliver installed a combined filter/oxygen pump. The person he spoke to seemed to know what they were doing more so than the last one. We had the wrong food so they gave us a different type (Tetra Goldfish Gold Japan). They said the PH was far too high (in the rush I forgot to tell him to get exact figures).

At the moment the water is much clearer. They told Oliver he didn't need a water testing kit as it was too fiddly and that they would test the water in two weeks' time. Obviously I'm not happy with that - we'll take a sample in this evening (we got back very late last night) and buy a kit at the same time. They also told us not to change the water at all - that it only needs changing once a month with this filter. Once I get the kit and a more accurate idea of what the water is like I'll change it.

Buster's red patch has nearly gone: at the moment the outline of his scales is red whereas before the whole patch (which hasn't increased) was blotchy red and purple.

I'll take your advice about the plants - at the moment my two concerns are that the plants have wispy white things on them (and are practically decimated!) and that the fish seem listless. However I've only been in the room with them for forty minutes so they may still be sleepy. Even when they were sick they were wizzing around.

It's my birthday shortly so I'll ask for a bigger tank then.

Thank you very much for your help - it was such a relief to find them much better.

 

[Warehouse]

They told Oliver he didn't need a water testing kit as it was too fiddly and that they would test the water in two weeks' time. Obviously I'm not happy with that - we'll take a sample in this evening (we got back very late last night) and buy a kit at the same time. They also told us not to change the water at all - that it only needs changing once a month with this filter. Once I get the kit and a more accurate idea of what the water is like I'll change it.

Terrible terrible advice. Get yourself an API freshwater test kit, (£22 on ebay or £35 from the fish shop), and keep doing those big water changes for now.

 

[KittyKat]

Yes Oliver installed a combined filter/oxygen pump. The person he spoke to seemed to know what they were doing more so than the last one. We had the wrong food so they gave us a different type (Tetra Goldfish Gold Japan). They said the PH was far too high (in the rush I forgot to tell him to get exact figures).

Great about the filter!
Do you know what the pH is? It is very unlikely that it would be too high for goldfish..

I'll take your advice about the plants - at the moment my two concerns are that the plants have wispy white things on them (and are practically decimated!)

Goldfish love eating plants

and that the fish seem listless. However I've only been in the room with them for forty minutes so they may still be sleepy. Even when they were sick they were wizzing around.

Do do a 50% water change if you haven't already...

It's my birthday shortly so I'll ask for a bigger tank then.

Look forward to hearing about it

They told Oliver he didn't need a water testing kit as it was too fiddly and that they would test the water in two weeks' time. Obviously I'm not happy with that - we'll take a sample in this evening (we got back very late last night) and buy a kit at the same time. They also told us not to change the water at all - that it only needs changing once a month with this filter. Once I get the kit and a more accurate idea of what the water is like I'll change it.

Terrible terrible advice. Get yourself an API freshwater test kit, (£22 on ebay or £35 from the fish shop), and keep doing those big water changes for now.

+1, if you need any help, just ask

 

[RoseC]

Rather than start a third thread I thought I'd add onto this one. At the moment the bowl is still cycling and nitrite is 5.0ppm (or higher - the API chart only goes that high). I bought some elodea and have been doing at least 1 litre water change every day (some water has evaporated so today I've added 2l but only taken 1.5 away). I've also done a gentle algae scrape. PH is fine, ammonia is at 0ppm.

Is there anything else I can be doing during this time? Is it better to have a larger water surface or water volume; the bowl tapers near the top. I'd prefer them to have more water to swim in but I think I've read that the water gets oxygen from surface disturbance so should I maximise that?

Thank you for your help - I'm so relieved to have found this forum! The fish seem happy and are only getting fed every other day.

 

[KittyKat]

Rather than start a third thread I thought I'd add onto this one. At the moment the bowl is still cycling and nitrite is 5.0ppm (or higher - the API chart only goes that high). I bought some elodea and have been doing at least 1 litre water change every day (some water has evaporated so today I've added 2l but only taken 1.5 away). I've also done a gentle algae scrape. PH is fine, ammonia is at 0ppm.

Please do more water changed to keep nitrite well below 0.25 ppm. At 5 ppm it will harm the fish in the long term.

Is there anything else I can be doing during this time? Is it better to have a larger water surface or water volume; the bowl tapers near the top. I'd prefer them to have more water to swim in but I think I've read that the water gets oxygen from surface disturbance so should I maximise that?

Larger surface area is always better, but the less water there is, the more concentrated the nitrite will be in it. You are best off leaving the bowl as full as possible for now.. and getting a larger tank at some point in the future which is a standard rectangular shape.