Sick betta

[Divinityinlove]

Hi. So following a previous post about worm treatment with ndx...

Here is my sick beta since the treatment 48 hours ago.

I did a 30% water change and put carbon back in as the instructions said.

Is there anything I can do for her now? I cannot take a picture as she is hiding in an awkward spot, next to the filter, back of tank. She's floating, not struggling to breathe but not moving either. She is pale on both sides and all her fins are clamped up.

If its organ damage from the dying worms as someone suggested, is there a fix?

 

[Colin_T]

You should do a 75-80% water change and complete gravel clean 24-48 hours after treatment. The big water change removes the medication and gravel cleaning sucks out any worms that are sitting in/ on the gravel.

You can also clean the filter after deworming fish to remove any worms sucked into the filter.

There's no treatment for internal wounds caused by worms biting the intestine. It's just a matter of letting the fish's immune system deal with them. Clean water and good food can help.

--------------------
To work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove these before measuring the height of the water level so you get a more accurate water volume.

You can use a permanent marker to draw a line on the tank at the water level and put down how many litres are in the tank at that level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "FishForum.net Calculator" under "Useful Links" at the bottom of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Hi. So following a previous post about worm treatment with ndx...

Here is my sick beta since the treatment 48 hours ago.

Man, I'm sorry they haven't bounced back yet...
Did you have a photo of her you meant to include here?

If its organ damage from the dying worms as someone suggested, is there a fix?

It's not definite that it's internal digestive tract damage that the worms caused remember, I just said to be aware that it's a possibility, since it's easy to think "oh it must have been the medicine", but even if the meds work as they should, it doesn't always mean that the worms are able to be passed (and then dead worms rotting inside the fish obviously become a real problem too) or that because worms latch onto the digestive tract, even when worms are killed and passed successfully, this can do some damage internally and leave open wounds for secondary infections. The nasty sad reality of these internal parasites I'm afraid.

@Colin_T gives the best advice above, as always! Fresh clean water to allow the betta the best chance at healing (pristine water conditions boosts the immune system) gives all of the fish the best chance of recovery. Crossing fingers for you that she pulls through.

 

[Divinityinlove]

Well I did a 40% water change, took carbon out (which was in there for 4 days) and started dosing gdex. That requires ongoing dosing for 3 days so I hope the survivors of my tank survive on... But I lose quite a few fish since these worms. awful. Maybe you're right and the worms plus combination of treatment, maybe is not great. They had worms for a while before treating since the only symptom was white poop. So next time if at all, I'll be better prepared.

 

[Divinityinlove]

You should do a 75-80% water change and complete gravel clean 24-48 hours after treatment. The big water change removes the medication and gravel cleaning sucks out any worms that are sitting in/ on the gravel.

You can also clean the filter after deworming fish to remove any worms sucked into the filter.

There's no treatment for internal wounds caused by worms biting the intestine. It's just a matter of letting the fish's immune system deal with them. Clean water and good food can help.

--------------------
To work out the volume of water in the tank:
measure length x width x height in cm.
divide by 1000.
= volume in litres.

When you measure the height, measure from the top of the substrate to the top of the water level.

If you have big rocks or driftwood in the tank, remove these before measuring the height of the water level so you get a more accurate water volume.

You can use a permanent marker to draw a line on the tank at the water level and put down how many litres are in the tank at that level.

There is a calculator/ converter in the "FishForum.net Calculator" under "Useful Links" at the bottom of this page that will let you convert litres to gallons if you need it.

The instructions said 50% water change or 20% plus add carbon. I did 30% and added carbon. I learned years ago that anything more than 30% water change shocks the fish and can cause death in itself. How do you counter that notion? Doesn't it totally f* up their cycle and eco system to change 70% of it?

 

[Colin_T]

I never had a problem doing big water changes. Some of my tanks got 90% water changes every week or even several times a week. I simply made the water up a week before using it so it was free of chlorine.

If the water was being used in a tank that had Rift Lake cichlids or rainbowfish in, mineral salts were added and allowed to completely dissolve over several days. If the water was being used for acid water fishes, the pH was dropped before use.

Matching the tank water and making sure it is free of chlorine/ chloramine before adding it to the tank, means you can do huge water changes and not stress the fish out.

The big water changes do nothing to filter bacteria unless you have chlorine or chloramine in the water when it goes into the tank. But that will also poison the fish.

--------------------
Deworming medications normally get adding once a week for 3-4 weeks, or once every 2 weeks for 3 doses.

I am unsure why the instructions for the Gdex says to treat for 3 days in a row. The first dose of deworming medication normally gets rid of adult worms. The follow up doses a few weeks later kill any baby worms that hatch in the fish.

Treating the fish for 3 days in a row will kill worms in the fish but the eggs are unaffected by the medication and unless you do follow up treatments a few weeks later, the fish will become re-infected.

 

[Valkyrie_Lips]

I second never having had issues with large water changes. I regularly do 60% weekly water changes and have changed up to 80% before. Large WCs don't shock the fish or cause death. However, what can shock the fish is if there is a big temp difference between new water and tank water so it is important to temp match.

Large WCs don't mess up your cycle in the slightest since the majority of beneficial bacteria reside on the filter media not in the water column.

 

[Divinityinlove]

I never had a problem doing big water changes. Some of my tanks got 90% water changes every week or even several times a week. I simply made the water up a week before using it so it was free of chlorine.

If the water was being used in a tank that had Rift Lake cichlids or rainbowfish in, mineral salts were added and allowed to completely dissolve over several days. If the water was being used for acid water fishes, the pH was dropped before use.

Matching the tank water and making sure it is free of chlorine/ chloramine before adding it to the tank, means you can do huge water changes and not stress the fish out.

The big water changes do nothing to filter bacteria unless you have chlorine or chloramine in the water when it goes into the tank. But that will also poison the fish.

--------------------
Deworming medications normally get adding once a week for 3-4 weeks, or once every 2 weeks for 3 doses.

I am unsure why the instructions for the Gdex says to treat for 3 days in a row. The first dose of deworming medication normally gets rid of adult worms. The follow up doses a few weeks later kill any baby worms that hatch in the fish.

Treating the fish for 3 days in a row will kill worms in the fish but the eggs are unaffected by the medication and unless you do follow up treatments a few weeks later, the fish will become re-infected.

Well yes it says to repeat as needed in two weeks. I will do so. However it says for the gdex 1ml per litre 1st day, then 0.5ml per litre for day 2 and 3. Leave for day 4. Water change and put back in carbon on day 5.

 

[Divinityinlove]

I second never having had issues with large water changes. I regularly do 60% weekly water changes and have changed up to 80% before. Large WCs don't shock the fish or cause death. However, what can shock the fish is if there is a big temp difference between new water and tank water so it is important to temp match.

Large WCs don't mess up your cycle in the slightest since the majority of beneficial bacteria reside on the filter media not in the water column.

Its just the stability of the water will be so different no? I take into consideration both of your experience shared. I just have noted that when some aquatic experts with really good filter systems on youtube have said essentially you can get tank equipment up to a point where it has such a complete, healthy cycle that they never do water changes at all and have perfect conditions for their stank, stable and the tank is totally undisturbed. Other experienced aquatics have said people do too many water changes, and it can do more harm than good. Sticking to once per month is more than enough etc. Kavemanaquatics on YouTube is where I got information to buy stability and prime, suggesting that when people do water changes upon nitrate spikes when there is a dead fish or other issue... They take out good bacteria as well as bad and that it is better to dose prime and stability, allowing beneficial bacteria to feed on the bad stuff and increase their strength and population instead of changing water which takes out opportunity for beneficial things to feed and grow. My aim is to make the tank self sustaining as much as possible so things can reduce nitrates naturally without my constant interference disrupting the tank. Thoughts on this?

 

[Valkyrie_Lips]

Its just the stability of the water will be so different no? I take into consideration both of your experience shared. I just have noted that when some aquatic experts with really good filter systems on youtube have said essentially you can get tank equipment up to a point where it has such a complete, healthy cycle that they never do water changes at all and have perfect conditions for their stank, stable and the tank is totally undisturbed. Other experienced aquatics have said people do too many water changes, and it can do more harm than good. Sticking to once per month is more than enough etc. Kavemanaquatics on YouTube is where I got information to buy stability and prime, suggesting that when people do water changes upon nitrate spikes when there is a dead fish or other issue... They take out good bacteria as well as bad and that it is better to dose prime and stability, allowing beneficial bacteria to feed on the bad stuff and increase their strength and population instead of changing water which takes out opportunity for beneficial things to feed and grow. My aim is to make the tank self sustaining as much as possible so things can reduce nitrates naturally without my constant interference disrupting the tank. Thoughts on this?

The stability? Do you mean water parameters? If so then no, it shouldn't be different if you are using the same source water and it is close to your tank's parameters. If you're concerned you can test your source (aka water change water) and your tank to see if there is a drastic difference in pH. Most likely there isn't therefore it won't cause any "instability" or changes in water chemistry within the tank.

I'm sorry but those youtubers are wrong. Science is constantly evolving and unfortunately they are going by old information that has since been disproven.

Here's some more information on beneficial bacteria below. First paragraph: "These bacteria ONLY grow and reproduce on surfaces, they do NOT grow or reproduce floating free in the aquarium water (that is a very old aquarium myth)."

Beneficial Bacteria in the Aquarium

"Beneficial bacteria" in an aquarium filter are largely responsible for changing somewhat toxic ammonia in fish waste to innocuous nitrate.

aquariumscience.org

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Its just the stability of the water will be so different no? I take into consideration both of your experience shared. I just have noted that when some aquatic experts with really good filter systems on youtube have said essentially you can get tank equipment up to a point where it has such a complete, healthy cycle that they never do water changes at all and have perfect conditions for their stank, stable and the tank is totally undisturbed. Other experienced aquatics have said people do too many water changes, and it can do more harm than good. Sticking to once per month is more than enough etc. Kavemanaquatics on YouTube is where I got information to buy stability and prime, suggesting that when people do water changes upon nitrate spikes when there is a dead fish or other issue... They take out good bacteria as well as bad and that it is better to dose prime and stability, allowing beneficial bacteria to feed on the bad stuff and increase their strength and population instead of changing water which takes out opportunity for beneficial things to feed and grow. My aim is to make the tank self sustaining as much as possible so things can reduce nitrates naturally without my constant interference disrupting the tank. Thoughts on this?

Very few fish live in stagnant puddles. The fish we keep (yes, even bettas) live in huge waterways, lakes and rivers. Have constant fresh flowing water at all times. I feel like we owe it to them to replicate that as much as possible, and that the idea that we can create a self-sustained ecosystem in just a few gallons of never changed water is foolish, arrogant and lazy.

 

[Divinityinlove]

Very few fish live in stagnant puddles. The fish we keep (yes, even bettas) live in huge waterways, lakes and rivers. Have constant fresh flowing water at all times. I feel like we owe it to them to replicate that as much as possible, and that the idea that we can create a self-sustained ecosystem in just a few gallons of never changed water is foolish, arrogant and lazy.

This article is great. I only recently started cleaning out the brown gunk from my filter. Each phase of research adds to the previous accumulation of knowledge and also counteracts it. First, I read the filter needs regular cleaning. Then, to never clean filter with tap water but clean off the gunk which otherwise blocks water flow and filter function, now, that brown gunk is THE MAIN function of the filteration lol. So basically I should never touch the filter? Is there any time where the gunk should be cleaned off, or filter media changed, sponge renewed? Carbon changed? Because it seems any change removes all beneficial organisms which form the biofilteration.

Also by stability, I meant generally not changing too much about the tank conditions.

I' have to finish reading the myths debunked on this article later, it's my anniversary and I must head out now to maximize experience of the sun before British summer is over.

However, I am curious what is the use of 90% water changes then if the beneficial bacteria and their biofiltration cycle is optimized in the tank and the filter media does its job well... Why do we need to change water at all let alone 90% of it? Aren't the microorganisms and the plants in turn using all the crap in the water to thrive?

 

[Essjay]

Fish excrete and secrete a lot more than ammonia. And many of these things cannot be removed by bacteria in the tank, so they build up. I used to work in a hospital lab and you'd be surprised at the things we tested for in urine. Fish excrete similar, if not the same, things as humans. Then there are all the pheromones and allomones secreted by the fish as chemical communication. The only way to remove them is by changing the tank water for fresh water containing none of these things.

When water changes are done infrequently and the amount very small this allows things to build up and tank water chemistry changes - this is the basis of old tank syndrome. The current fish acclimatise to this slow change, but new fish added often cannot cope and die quickly.
If a large water change is done in a tank with old tank syndrome the water chemistry is changed dramatically all at once, and this is not good for the fish in there. Large regular water changes remove the things dissolved in the water before they can build up which keeps the water chemistry stable, and in an emergency it is safe to change just about all the water. This cannot be done when a tank has old tank syndrome.

The brown goo on the filter media is fish poop, uneaten food, bits of dead plant and so on. All it does is rot down to make ammonia which gets turned into nitrate by the bacteria living on the surfaces in the tank, one of the causes of a high nitrate level. And it contributes to the amount of organics in the water which can encourage things like algae blooms and blue green algae (cyanobacteria)

 

[Divinityinlove]

Fish excrete and secrete a lot more than ammonia. And many of these things cannot be removed by bacteria in the tank, so they build up. I used to work in a hospital lab and you'd be surprised at the things we tested for in urine. Fish excrete similar, if not the same, things as humans. Then there are all the pheromones and allomones secreted by the fish as chemical communication. The only way to remove them is by changing the tank water for fresh water containing none of these things.

When water changes are done infrequently and the amount very small this allows things to build up and tank water chemistry changes - this is the basis of old tank syndrome. The current fish acclimatise to this slow change, but new fish added often cannot cope and die quickly.
If a large water change is done in a tank with old tank syndrome the water chemistry is changed dramatically all at once, and this is not good for the fish in there. Large regular water changes remove the things dissolved in the water before they can build up which keeps the water chemistry stable, and in an emergency it is safe to change just about all the water. This cannot be done when a tank has old tank syndrome.

The brown goo on the filter media is fish poop, uneaten food, bits of dead plant and so on. All it does is rot down to make ammonia which gets turned into nitrate by the bacteria living on the surfaces in the tank, one of the causes of a high nitrate level. And it contributes to the amount of organics in the water which can encourage things like algae blooms and blue green algae (cyanobacteria)

The article in the reply above says the brown gunk is biolfilm which the beneficial organisms use to thrive essentially. Have you read it? Please let me know your thoughts on said article: https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/2-12-beneficial-bacteria/

Otherwise, you're saying the brown gunk is best removed if it is as you say, just rubbish..?

Very few fish live in stagnant puddles. The fish we keep (yes, even bettas) live in huge waterways, lakes and rivers. Have constant fresh flowing water at all times. I feel like we owe it to them to replicate that as much as possible, and that the idea that we can create a self-sustained ecosystem in just a few gallons of never changed water is foolish, arrogant and lazy.

Well they seemed to know what they were talking about and most importantly it was working for them or else they'd have changed their methods lol

 

[Divinityinlove]

Fish excrete and secrete a lot more than ammonia. And many of these things cannot be removed by bacteria in the tank, so they build up. I used to work in a hospital lab and you'd be surprised at the things we tested for in urine. Fish excrete similar, if not the same, things as humans. Then there are all the pheromones and allomones secreted by the fish as chemical communication. The only way to remove them is by changing the tank water for fresh water containing none of these things.

When water changes are done infrequently and the amount very small this allows things to build up and tank water chemistry changes - this is the basis of old tank syndrome. The current fish acclimatise to this slow change, but new fish added often cannot cope and die quickly.
If a large water change is done in a tank with old tank syndrome the water chemistry is changed dramatically all at once, and this is not good for the fish in there. Large regular water changes remove the things dissolved in the water before they can build up which keeps the water chemistry stable, and in an emergency it is safe to change just about all the water. This cannot be done when a tank has old tank syndrome.

The brown goo on the filter media is fish poop, uneaten food, bits of dead plant and so on. All it does is rot down to make ammonia which gets turned into nitrate by the bacteria living on the surfaces in the tank, one of the causes of a high nitrate level. And it contributes to the amount of organics in the water which can encourage things like algae blooms and blue green algae (cyanobacteria)

Also.... In addition to my previous response (just so you don't miss it)....

Am I correctly understanding... That I can create better water conditions and slowly adapt from "old tank syndrome" by adding 10% to water change volume weekly until I can safely change 90% water weekly and my fish will be OK? I now do 30% weekly. Maybe I do 40% next week, then 50% then 60% increasing each week... Then stay at 90% weekly?