shrimp shrimp shrimp

[thrujenseyes]

So, I finally bit the bullet and ordered live on line.
I'd never done that so I was very nervous.
Someone here (sorry I can't remember who) suggested Aquatic Arts.

I'd been stalking their (very well done) website for almost a year.
I'd settled on their group of all male Neocaridina Davidi since I have a little 6 gallon fluval edge and don't want it to turn into a sardine can.

I already have 4 male endlers, one Amano shrimp (can't mate with the others), one Dream blue male shrimp and one nerite snail.

They were absolutely fantastic every step of the way and the shrimp arrived (two extra) so lovingly packed. I was alerted by email every step...even when the UPS schedule was running early and when they arrived.
I put together a little video of their acclimation and release for the company to see and thought someone here might be interested.
I'll also attach a pic of my fav shrimp that arrived although they're all stunning.

Now, Part two of this....
Only 2 remain alive a week later.....
and I THINK it's my endlers?!?! Is this possible?!?!

I've ruled out all but the TDS measurement (which the guy at AA told me is very important with Dwarf shrimp). I tried to find a meter yesterday at local hardware shops but couldn't so I ordered one from Amazon that will hopefully be here soon.
*disclaimer, I had to google TDS. I thought knowing the GH, KH and PH was enough*

I'll leave my tank parameters just for a reference (some of you may note that I've gone back and forth trying to decide hard or soft water because my well comes out soft but once in my tank becomes more hard...yet probably still not hard enough for endlers. But I had one endler that I felt bad for so I got him a few friends).

*6 gallon fluval edge
*heavily planted (mostly anubias species)
*only additives are Prime (in water change) and Seachem Flourish Comprehensive (midweek).
*I dose with medical grade dosers to assure correct dosing.
I mix my tap and straight well water 1/2 and 1/2 which sits in Primo 5 gallon water jugs weeks before being used.
I keep a small bag of crushed aragonite in filter as well as a small bag in the jug that holds the mixed water.
the Tank winds up reading:
PH = 7.6
KH = 40 - 80 ppm
GH = 75 - 150 ppm
chlorine = zero
Ammonia = zero
Nitrite = zero
Nitrate = 0 - 10ppm
*I 40-50% water change ever single Monday. Making sure readings are similar before adding.
I grow the main anubias very large which reaches just below the top glass allowing the leaves to grow a tiny bit of algae from the lights above which keeps the shrimp and snail very thrilled and I usually blanch a veggie once every other week to offer.
The endlers get flakes but also eat anything they can, veggie, algae bits on plants....etc (pigs).

So.....
Other than the TDS the only suspect left are the fish themselves.
And I have seen them run a couple of the shrimp down....kind of running into them, hitting them off of their game. And once they've passed...Good Lord, it's a massacre.
Do you think the Endlers could be actively hunting and killing?!?!??!!

In the two and a half years I've had the tank nothing has ever bothered my Amano...although he's very large. But I've had Sunkist shrimp and the dream blue and they never touched them either.

Any ideas?!

 

[SnailPocalypse]

I would'nt doubt it.TDS isn't as important or neocaridina as much as caridina I would make a guess of it being the endlers.

 

[neoyyf]

Were the shrimp drip acclimated? Seachem flourish contains copper, it might be that. The shrimp look adult sized, if so then i dont think it is the endlers

 

[thrujenseyes]

I would'nt doubt it.TDS isn't as important or neocaridina as much as caridina I would make a guess of it being the endlers.

I still find it hard to believe but they are so boisterous. Maybe if the shrimp had recently molted and was extra delicate and pushy endler could kill it?!


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[thrujenseyes]

Were the shrimp drip acclimated? Seachem flourish contains copper, it might be that. The shrimp look adult sized, if so then i dont think it is the endlers

Yes they were drip acclimated.
Only one of the shrimp didn’t look as if it were going to survive when they arrived and he passed about 30 seconds after being added to the tank.
The rest pepped up and went about their business.

They seemed very normal and then minutes later I’d find one upside down with an endler nipping at it.

I’d researched a lot about the flourish once I was recommended to use it.
Comprehensive has such a minuscule amount that seachem themselves say its perfectly safe.
You would have to massively overdose to do harm.
Apparently a lot of fish and shrimp foods have a higher amount ....they say a certain amount is actually needed?! ....that confused me but...?

I’ve considered not even using as I only keep low tech plants like anubias anyway.
As of now I only dose .25ml a week which is way under what is recommend.

So, I’m guessing it’s not that!?

........bbbuuuttttt that makes me wonder about my fish food....I’ll have to look if there is copper in there?!




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[SnailPocalypse]

You can.Seachem woul not e the problem at all you would have to dose that tank with about 20 mL o that stuff in your small tank before maye the shrimp acted sluggish.Im sticking with my bet on endlers.As when I had shrimp with tetras which I assume are like your endlers my tetras killed the shrimp after the light went off.

 

[neoyyf]

Perhaps stop the Seachem Flourish until the shrimps are really settled. I think the shipping really stressed them out so it is likely they are very sensitive right now. Do you know if Aquatic Arts bred the shrimps themselves if they were imported? If imported, they will have had that stress too, so perhaps there was nothing you could have done. That maybe why they sent two extra

With the endlers, i really dont know. But yes some will attack shrimps but i would have thought it was immediate rather than a sneak attack

 

[NickAu]

I use Seachen flourish in my tanks and the shrimp do fine, in fact they do so fine they breed faster than my Betta sorority can eat them.

Live bearers will eat anything that fits in their mouth,

 

[SnailPocalypse]

+1 to Nick.I own them and anything including my hand that goes in their space they will atempt to eat.

 

[thrujenseyes]

You can.Seachem woul not e the problem at all you would have to dose that tank with about 20 mL o that stuff in your small tank before maye the shrimp acted sluggish.Im sticking with my bet on endlers.As when I had shrimp with tetras which I assume are like your endlers my tetras killed the shrimp after the light went off.

I knew that many tetras have a rap for being super nippy. I've had endlers for years and never seen them so much as look wrong at a shrimp...until now.

Perhaps stop the Seachem Flourish until the shrimps are really settled. I think the shipping really stressed them out so it is likely they are very sensitive right now. Do you know if Aquatic Arts bred the shrimps themselves if they were imported? If imported, they will have had that stress too, so perhaps there was nothing you could have done. That maybe why they sent two extra

With the endlers, i really dont know. But yes some will attack shrimps but i would have thought it was immediate rather than a sneak attack

I think they breed them themselves, but i'll check. They've been so wonderful. I email back and forth every day (i'm probably driving the poor guy to drink....if he's not absolutely sloshed already).
I do understand shipping is terrible on them, which is why I never wanted to do it in the first place. It breaks my heart for the little critters.
But I couldn't find anywhere that carried a variety and that could sex them. I didn't want to chance getting any female or having them breed.
And I THOUGHT i had enough hiding places (crazy free growing rhizome roots) that shrimplettes would survive...but if that's true wouldn't my shrimp now hide in there if being hunted by the endlers?!
Maybe they're still unwell from shipping and my endlers know it and are driving them to death so they can have a super meal?!
I will hold off on any more flourish comp for now. jjjuuusssttt in case.

I use Seachen flourish in my tanks and the shrimp do fine, in fact they do so fine they breed faster than my Betta sorority can eat them.

Live bearers will eat anything that fits in their mouth,

Oh I'm glad you posted NickAu, because I thought you were a Flourish user. And I knew you always had booming shrimp populations.
Sooooo....you think my little endlers are the culprits?!
Why would they do this now, all of a sudden? Because the shipping stressed the shrimp and they were weaker?
The last 4 that were (maybe murdered) looked to be in perfect health, scavenging around with the amano and blue dream. Then minutes later I'd find them upside-down.

 

[Ch4rlie]

Hmm, I have always had endlers with my shrimps, black bar endlers to be more specific, not the guppy endlers hybrids that’s so common in lots of LFS.

The guppy/endlers hybrid are larger than black bars so that may be worth a thought,

I have not used seachem flourish so cannot comment on that part, however I do use two different feet’s and one of them has traces of copper in the ingredient list but does not seem to affect the shrimps tbh.

One suspect that may be worth considering is the amano shrimp, I have 6 amanos and they do grow pretty large, around 3 inches so small shrimps and shrimplets are fair game to them as tasty snacks.

But to be honest, I would not worry too much.

Shrimps are profilic breeders and the shrimplets are good at hiding so some will usually survive to adulthood but most shrimplets will be snack to the fish (and large amanos) but there should always be shrimps, I have kept shrimps for nearly 5 years and only have bought 24 more fire red cherries about a year ago just to mix up the gene pool and more red colourations into the new batches of shrimps.

I have danios, endlers and lamb chop rasboras who are now a good age and size that I suspect they munch on more shrimps than anyone else in the tank that I don’t really worry about shrimp numbers.

There will always be losses, even in the most healthy aquarium, that’s just part and parcel of being a fish keeper, part of the natural cycle

 

[NickAu]

Oh I'm glad you posted NickAu, because I thought you were a Flourish user.

Seachem Flourish comprehensive supplement for the planted tank.

 

[StevenF]

My experience is that SeaChem flourish is safe for shrimp and my own studies indicate that the shrimp should be able to safely tolerate levels about 5 times higher. Note I have not tested that.

The problem with Aquarium raised shrimp including the ones you purchased is that the breeders typically only sell the juveniles which are smaller than the adults. The adults may be big enough that the fish wouldn't generally bother them. But small Juveniles will be the ones that are eaten first. Some may survive to adult to reach adult size and bread or you might loose them all. I don't know for sure (I may have made the same mistake last week). Some or maybe all maybe living in a spot the fish have a hard time finding or you seeing. Some things you could do to increase the number of survivors are:

• Temporarily add a plastic plant large enough and dense enough that the fish would generally swim around it instead of through it. The shrimp could stay safe in the plastic plants. Plastic plants would be faster than getting additional live plants and hoping they grow enough fast enough for the shrimp use it as a hiding place.
• Feed your fish more. If the fish aren't hungry they may leave the shrimp alone.
• buy a fish net breeder. This is a net with fine fish net around a wire box that goes into the aquarium If the Juveniles can be separated from the adults and placed in the breeder net they would be safe until they reach adult size.

 

[thrujenseyes]

My experience is that SeaChem flourish is safe for shrimp and my own studies indicate that the shrimp should be able to safely tolerate levels about 5 times higher. Note I have not tested that.

The problem with Aquarium raised shrimp including the ones you purchased is that the breeders typically only sell the juveniles which are smaller than the adults. The adults may be big enough that the fish wouldn't generally bother them. But small Juveniles will be the ones that are eaten first. Some may survive to adult to reach adult size and bread or you might loose them all. I don't know for sure (I may have made the same mistake last week). Some or maybe all maybe living in a spot the fish have a hard time finding or you seeing. Some things you could do to increase the number of survivors are:

• Temporarily add a plastic plant large enough and dense enough that the fish would generally swim around it instead of through it. The shrimp could stay safe in the plastic plants. Plastic plants would be faster than getting additional live plants and hoping they grow enough fast enough for the shrimp use it as a hiding place.
• Feed your fish more. If the fish aren't hungry they may leave the shrimp alone.
• buy a fish net breeder. This is a net with fine fish net around a wire box that goes into the aquarium If the Juveniles can be separated from the adults and placed in the breeder net they would be safe until they reach adult size.

They actually said they are Juvenile because they do better transferring to new places. The older ones are more delicate and have a harder time acclimating. They aren't teeeeeny tiny though, and I suppose it's because they are old enough to be sexed (as I ordered all males).

Something I noticed is that the only two remaining are very dark shrimp and extremely hard to see (and find). One is dark blue and clear and the other is black.
I have Seachem Black Fluorite substrate and I'm heavily planted. The first ones to go were the bright easy to see shrimp....
So....do fish see colors?!?!? Were the first to die like little red flags waving in the winds "come and eat me"?!??!

As for your wonderful suggestions:
1. I am heavily planted and have all rhizome plants and let the roots grow WILD. There are TONS of hiding places but I never saw the shrimp hide....they were always bumbling about.
2. I actually did feed the fish once I noticed they showed interest in the new shrimp. I sunk a wafer to distract them but I swear it caused a frenzied attitude (like sharks) and they went bonkers trying to eat everything.
I actually took it out after a few minutes because I got worried.
3. I might try that if I chose to try any more shrimp....although I have no idea how that will work in an already ridiculously small tank?!

Hmm, I have always had endlers with my shrimps, black bar endlers to be more specific, not the guppy endlers hybrids that’s so common in lots of LFS.

The guppy/endlers hybrid are larger than black bars so that may be worth a thought,

I have not used seachem flourish so cannot comment on that part, however I do use two different feet’s and one of them has traces of copper in the ingredient list but does not seem to affect the shrimps tbh.

One suspect that may be worth considering is the amano shrimp, I have 6 amanos and they do grow pretty large, around 3 inches so small shrimps and shrimplets are fair game to them as tasty snacks.

But to be honest, I would not worry too much.

Shrimps are profilic breeders and the shrimplets are good at hiding so some will usually survive to adulthood but most shrimplets will be snack to the fish (and large amanos) but there should always be shrimps, I have kept shrimps for nearly 5 years and only have bought 24 more fire red cherries about a year ago just to mix up the gene pool and more red colourations into the new batches of shrimps.

I have danios, endlers and lamb chop rasboras who are now a good age and size that I suspect they munch on more shrimps than anyone else in the tank that I don’t really worry about shrimp numbers.

There will always be losses, even in the most healthy aquarium, that’s just part and parcel of being a fish keeper, part of the natural cycle

My endlers are, one black bar, 2 bright red and two cobra endlers. I assume the last 4 are guppy hybrids but they are super tiny like the black bar.

I actually would have suspected my Amano as he's a giant pig and I've seen him run off with dead/dying fish before (there was a time I actually thought he was catching and killing, but it wasn't true...and yes, he's an Amano and not the one with the long arms that actually is a murderous little shrimp).
But, I haven't seen him even look twice at the new shrimp, but I have seen two different endlers (a red and a cobra) run down a shrimp or two. Kind of full on running into them knocking them over (like a shark does to a seal).

Seachem Flourish comprehensive supplement for the planted tank.

thanks, that's what I thought...me too

 

[neoyyf]

I was at London Zoo couple of weeks ago and they have a huge half moon (front bow) tank full of red cherry and amano shrimp, heavily planted on the flat wall side of the tank. Thinking about it now, i did not see any shrimplets, but the zoo was closing so didnt have much time to look longer. I did notice however that many of the amanos were berried