Should I take a chance on this ram?

[wtusa17]

So I’ve tried 3 rams so far. All have died. Our ph out the tap is 7.8. I have fluval stratum and it buffers the ph to 7. The lady at my lfs has the rams in a 6.5 ph but our hardness. She has had them for about 2+ weeks now. Should I take a chance on this ram?

 

[Byron]

Is this the common or blue ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) or the Bolivian Ram (M. altispinossus)? Were the three ram deaths relatively close, or over time? What are the parameters of your water...parameters includes GH, pH and temperature?

Do you know if they are wild or commercially-raised?

 

[wtusa17]

Is this the common or blue ram (Mikrogeophagus ramirezi) or the Bolivian Ram (M. altispinossus)? Were the three ram deaths relatively close, or over time? What are the parameters of your water...parameters includes GH, pH and temperature?

Do you know if they are wild or commercially-raised?

This would be gb and eb rams. The rams never lived over a week. 2 died that I had. I got another one and it died after only a week also. These were months ago. I know the ph is 7 but can’t say for GH. What temp would you recommend for rams?

 

[Byron]

This would be gb and eb rams. The rams never lived over a week. 2 died that I had. I got another one and it died after only a week also. These were months ago. I know the ph is 7 but can’t say for GH. What temp would you recommend for rams?

I asked about the parameters because these fish (both rams) are highly sensitive to such things. The blue (common) ram [in any of the varieties, they are the one species] will survive best in water that is reasonably close to that in which it was hatched/raised. This is unique among fish; most species require (to some degree) water similar to their habitat, but this ram should manage if the water is kept close to what it was raised in. The Bolivian is different, it requires water close to the habitat regardless.

The blue ram needs warmth; 80F (27C) is absolute minimum, but it will be stronger at 82-86F (28-30C). This species has a normal lifespan expectancy of 4 years, maybe 5, but it will never live close to that at cooler temperatures. However, the lower temperature will not kill it that quickly, it is a slow weakening of the fish's physiology and metabolism.

The species is highly susceptible to any problem with water conditions aside from the above. It cannot tolerate nitrate (all cichlids have significant issues with nitrates even close to 20 ppm). It would be impossible now to assess what may have been the problem with prior fish. They need careful handling, with no sudden changes in water parameters or conditions. There may have been a problem at the hatchery, the supplier, or the store.

 

[wtusa17]

I asked about the parameters because these fish (both rams) are highly sensitive to such things. The blue (common) ram [in any of the varieties, they are the one species] will survive best in water that is reasonably close to that in which it was hatched/raised. This is unique among fish; most species require (to some degree) water similar to their habitat, but this ram should manage if the water is kept close to what it was raised in. The Bolivian is different, it requires water close to the habitat regardless.

The blue ram needs warmth; 80F (27C) is absolute minimum, but it will be stronger at 82-86F (28-30C). This species has a normal lifespan expectancy of 4 years, maybe 5, but it will never live close to that at cooler temperatures. However, the lower temperature will not kill it that quickly, it is a slow weakening of the fish's physiology and metabolism.

The species is highly susceptible to any problem with water conditions aside from the above. It cannot tolerate nitrate (all cichlids have significant issues with nitrates even close to 20 ppm). It would be impossible now to assess what may have been the problem with prior fish. They need careful handling, with no sudden changes in water parameters or conditions. There may have been a problem at the hatchery, the supplier, or the store.

The previous rams were in a tank with a 7.8 ph. These will be in a 7.0 ph

 

[Byron]

The previous rams were in a tank with a 7.8 ph. These will be in a 7.0 ph

I doubt that was the issue with the former rams, though it may have contributed. This is not a hardy species.

 

[wtusa17]

I doubt that was the issue with the former rams, though it may have contributed. This is not a hardy species.

I know. So should I take the chance. Would 80 degrees affect my plants? Won’t it kill my other fish faster? I have angels and dwarf neon rainbows. Planning on getting cories and cherry barbs

 

[JuiceBox52]

I wouldn't take the chance

 

[wtusa17]

I wouldn't take the chance

Ok. Why should I not? For what reasons do you not like?

 

[JuiceBox52]

Because they are not very hardy and if the others have died there must be something not right for them

 

[wtusa17]

Because they are not very hardy and if the others have died there must be something not right for them

Ok thanks. I also don’t like having a higher temp for just one fish. Would an apisto work better?

 

[Byron]

I know. So should I take the chance. Would 80 degrees affect my plants? Won’t it kill my other fish faster? I have angels and dwarf neon rainbows. Planning on getting cories and cherry barbs

This will not work. M. ramirezi must have the higher temperatures. Angelfish can manage with this, though if they are tank raised and not wild caught they don't need this much heat and over time it does work against them. For dwarf neon rainbowfish, temperature range is 22-28C/72-82F, with long-term maintenance best at 24-25C/74-77F, higher for breeding. Corydoras should never be kept above 80F; there are a few species that manage with this and are often suggested for discus, but it is not really wise. Cherry barb temperature range is 23-27C/74-81F so this is not good as well.

There really are few species of "tropical" fish that can be maintained at high temperatures on a continual basis which is why finding tankmates for M. ramirezi is tricky. The cardinal and green neon (Parachierodon axelrodi and P. simulans) work very well, especially the latter which can be found in watercourses having a temperature of 35C (95F) permanently. The neon tetra by contrast needs mid-70'sF.

When you see a temperature range for a species, on reliable sites, it is expected that mid-range will work best long-term, with the upper and lower ends OK for temporary periods. Fish are ectothermic, and the temperature of the water drives their metabolism. Even a degree or two can have considerable effect on the species' health and physiology.

 

[wtusa17]

This will not work. M. ramirezi must have the higher temperatures. Angelfish can manage with this, though if they are tank raised and not wild caught they don't need this much heat and over time it does work against them. For dwarf neon rainbowfish, temperature range is 22-28C/72-82F, with long-term maintenance best at 24-25C/74-77F, higher for breeding. Corydoras should never be kept above 80F; there are a few species that manage with this and are often suggested for discus, but it is not really wise. Cherry barb temperature range is 23-27C/74-81F so this is not good as well.

There really are few species of "tropical" fish that can be maintained at high temperatures on a continual basis which is why finding tankmates for M. ramirezi is tricky. The cardinal and green neon (Parachierodon axelrodi and P. simulans) work very well, especially the latter which can be found in watercourses having a temperature of 35C (95F) permanently. The neon tetra by contrast needs mid-70'sF.

When you see a temperature range for a species, on reliable sites, it is expected that mid-range will work best long-term, with the upper and lower ends OK for temporary periods. Fish are ectothermic, and the temperature of the water drives their metabolism. Even a degree or two can have considerable effect on the species' health and physiology.

Ok. I don’t think rams are for me. How about apistos?

 

[Byron]

Ok. I don’t think rams are for me. How about apistos?

Temperature-wise, there are Apistogramma suited to "normal" tropical tank temperatures. But here you get into another issue, mixing cichlids. If you have angelfish, I would not recommend Apistogramma. I cannot remember the tank size here but angelfish are large fish and need space.

 

[wtusa17]

Temperature-wise, there are Apistogramma suited to "normal" tropical tank temperatures. But here you get into another issue, mixing cichlids. If you have angelfish, I would not recommend Apistogramma. I cannot remember the tank size here but angelfish are large fish and need space.

Ok