Shop At Tescos...?

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Oh, randomly found this new news article which may interest you as its relevant to this topic of importing foreign goods;

http/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7028573.stm

"The UK's increasing dependence on Chinese goods is contributing to a rise in carbon emissions, a report suggests.

The New Economic Foundation (Nef) says such reliance is adding to CO2 levels because China's factories produce more CO2 per item than British ones"

"The report also says many similar goods are both imported and exported, adding needlessly to CO2 output in transport.

Over the last year, UK imports from China rose by 10% nearing 6.5 million tonnes, Nef reports."

"The organisation calculates that Chinese factories produce about one-third more carbon than European ones for making the same product; and more CO2 will be produced in transporting the goods."

"Nef also said the international trade pattern prompted higher greenhouse gas emissions from transport but had little discernible benefit for the consumer.

During 2006, the UK exported 15,845 tonnes of chocolate-covered waffles and wafers, but imported 14,137 tonnes."


""Why would that wasteful trade be more the rule than the exception?" asked Andrew Simms.

He suggested that a pricing system that reflected carbon produced in transport would be an effective way of curbing this two-way trading, by making local goods cheaper."



"But a big factor in that rise is that China has become the major factory for the western world, so their greenhouse gas emissions are largely driven by higher levels of consumption in the west."








Meh...Actually, everything in this article backs up my points, and is also latest research too, so i'll just let you read the thing in the link for yourself.

Now we all know how much supermarkets rely on Chinese goods, food products and non-foood products alike.... .

 

[andywg]

Well battery farming is buisness. You disagree about battery farming, but then again this ignores your "strong or die" motto. What do you have to say to that- you can't have it both ways.

As you are unable to read my posts despite me clarifying my statement 3 times I shall not respond to yours. If the only way you can reply to my posts is to write words I didn't say in quotes and respond to that then you have already lost any sensible argument.

Please Toxis, this started out as a good debate, but because you cannot win it conclusively you are starting to argue on misinformation hoping people (and maybe me) will forget what I said even though it is above you to check on.

Do you not sympthathise for farmers who go out of buisness because they refuse to reduce the quality of life of their livestock to meet the cheap price demands of the supermarkets?

I sympathise, but complaining about it now reeks of barn doors and horses bolting. I say again, if tehre was a market for more people to eat non battery farmed food then people would go for it. Supermarkets carry free range and organic and many people do not want it. Tough break, but that is the world.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Well battery farming is buisness. You disagree about battery farming, but then again this ignores your "strong or die" motto. What do you have to say to that- you can't have it both ways.

As you are unable to read my posts despite me clarifying my statement 3 times I shall not respond to yours. If the only way you can reply to my posts is to write words I didn't say in quotes and respond to that then you have already lost any sensible argument.

Please Toxis, this started out as a good debate, but because you cannot win it conclusively you are starting to argue on misinformation hoping people (and maybe me) will forget what I said even though it is above you to check on.

Where am i misinformed then, spell it out to me? You say you're against battery farming, but on the other hand your "motto" is "adapt or die" or "let the strong prosper" or whatever. You've used this motto as a major reason of not supporting small farmers who cannot compete against supermarket and foriegn food prices, but you do not appply the motto to battery farms. IMHO when you have a motto, it is something you live by, you don't just apply it to some things and not others when it suits you.

Do you not sympthathise for farmers who go out of buisness because they refuse to reduce the quality of life of their livestock to meet the cheap price demands of the supermarkets?

I sympathise, but complaining about it now reeks of barn doors and horses bolting. I say again, if tehre was a market for more people to eat non battery farmed food then people would go for it. Supermarkets carry free range and organic and many people do not want it. Tough break, but that is the world.

I'm not complaining about it, just debating. In this thread you kept on going on about how you don't care at all about the smaller farmers which struggle with the poor prices they get paid for stuff now days, and now you "sympathise", i quote below;

The truth finally comes out- you don't give a damn about what happens to farmers in this country, the very people that maintain a whole variety of breeds of domesticated or semi-domesticated animals- if we didn't have farmers, such animals would go extinct in this country (and this is the truth, many of the less productive breeds have already gone extinct or are nearing extinction), these are the people whose food you were raised upon, these are the people that work all day to provide the countryside with buisness and help sustain the local ecomonies.

Farming is an essential part of countryside life, if you don't care about farming, then why even care about the people living in the countryside?

"Finally comes out"? I haven't hid it at all. As I said, I see that pregress is necessary. We have no real engineering in this country because other countries do it just as well and cheaper, so we lost a lot of engineers who retrained and do other jobs. Farmers should do the same. That is the way the world moves on.

Did we all decide we should stop using motorcars because it put farriers and blacksmiths out of business? No.

Before you said you didn't give a damn, now you say you sympathise? Someone's changing their opinions.

 

[andywg]

I see you choose to ignore a very important part of the the article Andy, which if you included it in your post, would change a great deal of things;""With meat in the UK, there is also a supermarket issue. Each of the supermarkets runs its own abattoir, so if you sell your lamb to Tesco, you have to send your lamb to Tesco's abattoir, even if you pass several local abattoirs on the way. As a result, the meat picks up a huge amount of 'in-Britain' food miles from farm to abattoir then to packaging before it gets to its final destination.""If we could sort it out so that meat was slaughtered and packaged locally, it could make the whole process far more efficient."What do you have to say to this? Fact, your glorious supermarkets are a part of british food products not being as environmentally friendly, although you choose not to adress this issue in your post.

How about this, the UK from end to end is not much more than 1,000 miles. The NZ food has travelled 11,000 miles. You have ignored something far more important than supermarkets owning their own abatoirs:"Prof Caroline Saunders, who led the research, said: "Food miles are a very simplistic concept, but it is misleading as it does not consider the total energy use, especially in the production of the product.""The energy of production makes UK meats so woeful for the environment. The travelling emissions are nowhere near going to account for 2,000 kg of CO2 per tonne of lamb produced over here.Abatoirs closing down is due to more than just the supermarkets buying them, it is also as a result of the regulations tightening on how the abatoirs must work making smaller abatoirs less economical. I am aware of this because I have looked through the Liquidation files of at least two abatoirs in the East of England and seeing the problems legislation causes. Whether the supermarket owned the abatoirs or not, the animals would still be travelling a long way due to the legal statute.

I have never said food miles are the be all and end all of the situation- one of the reasons why i posted my news article, was because your original one was not as indepth on the subject and did not question as many issues. Also i find it patronising that you repeat what in essence messages i have already said to you i.e. "So remember, look deeper; the environment is a very complex area and sound bites do not tell the whole story.". Lets keep the personal attacks aside i.e i'm "clutching at straws", i could very much apply such things to you in this post if i lowered myself to it- such personal attacks almost always generally lead to threads becomming less civilised, so regardless of what you think of a persons attitude, as long as they're acting in a civilised and mature manner, try to keep to the topic at hand and leave out the posts which could be taken as personally insulting, i know you are cleverer enough to know better.

Let's look at some of your behaviour Toxis, I said that the CAP pays our farmers to make stuff we don't need which is dumped on the thirld world, and you claim I said it goes to small farmers and slate me for it saying I have no understanding of the CAP.I am fed up with you putting in quotes things I have said. 3 times now you have done it. I have never said that you are clutching at straws, nor even inferred it. I was pointing out that the environment is far more than just how far things travel.Point out exactly where I have said you are clutching at straws, or withdraw the above comment about personal attacks. If you don't I shall ignore you as you are trying to insinuate my response are ad hominem when they are anything but. |Seriously Toxis, I used to respect your ability to put forward reasoned debate, but now I am really starting to reconsider that respect.Hell, that comment on needing to look into the ebvironment depeer than a glance was in my closing statement after putting forwards some calculations of how much better for the environment NZ lamb is than our own lamb. It wasn't even directly against you. Put your toys back in the pram and realise that my posts contain message for anyone reading as much as just for you.

Where am i misinformed then, spell it out to me? You say you're against battery farming, but on the other hand your "motto" is "adapt or die" or "let the strong prosper" or whatever.

Such a shame, this discussion ends here. I never said "let the strong prosper". I never said my motto is "adapt or die".Read my posts before quoting them Toxis. I said the motto of life is "adapt or die". You have never once been able to deny that, so you claimed I said something different and moaned from there.

Before you said you didn't give a damn, now you say you sympathise? Someone's changing their opinions.

I sympathise that small farmers have lost their job, like anyone who has, but I don't give a damn that is has happened. No change there.I was going to respond to the rest of your posts, but I refuse to argue with someone who will not even read my posts before sztating what I wrote. My apologies to anyone else who was following this thread.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

I have never said that you are clutching at straws, nor even inferred it.

Yes you did;

You really are starting to grasp at straws where you refer to confusion over an issue where the misdirection was caused by you (see the example about society vs fossil history of man above).

Ok clutching at straws/grasping at straws- same thing, you said it. You go on about me slating you for misinterperating the CAP thing, but you are hypocritical of the same thing (if not, for example what do you call the above quote then?)

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

How about this, the UK from end to end is not much more than 1,000 miles. The NZ food has travelled 11,000 miles. You have ignored something far more important than supermarkets owning their own abatoirs:"Prof Caroline Saunders, who led the research, said: "Food miles are a very simplistic concept, but it is misleading as it does not consider the total energy use, especially in the production of the product.""The energy of production makes UK meats so woeful for the environment. The travelling emissions are nowhere near going to account for 2,000 kg of CO2 per tonne of lamb produced over here.Abatoirs closing down is due to more than just the supermarkets buying them, it is also as a result of the regulations tightening on how the abatoirs must work making smaller abatoirs less economical. I am aware of this because I have looked through the Liquidation files of at least two abatoirs in the East of England and seeing the problems legislation causes. Whether the supermarket owned the abatoirs or not, the animals would still be travelling a long way due to the legal statute.

So you base your opinion on the closure of abotoirs across this country on the closure of two abatoirs you have seen? Can you give me any evidence/articles/facts whatever here to back up your opinions? You cannot give broad statements on what is happening across the country with abatoirs on two such examples.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Such a shame, this discussion ends here. I never said "let the strong prosper". I never said my motto is "adapt or die".Read my posts before quoting them Toxis. I said the motto of life is "adapt or die". You have never once been able to deny that, so you claimed I said something different and moaned from there.

You said this in the same post as you said "the motto of life is adapt or die"

"I don't care if they make some profit, and I to be brutally honest I don't care if someone who worked in an outdated method has lost their job, that is progress"



By saying what you said in relation to the motto, in essence you were saying you agreed with the motto which is why i referred to it as "your" motto, which for many posts you didn't correct me upon that directly, only now you did- but how else would you expect me to interperate what you said considering the context in which you said it?

Before you said you didn't give a damn, now you say you sympathise? Someone's changing their opinions.

I sympathise that small farmers have lost their job, like anyone who has, but I don't give a damn that is has happened. No change there.I was going to respond to the rest of your posts, but I refuse to argue with someone who will not even read my posts before sztating what I wrote. My apologies to anyone else who was following this thread.

What you just said doesn't make any sense, i quote from before you said

and I to be brutally honest I don't care if someone who worked in an outdated method has lost their job, that is progress"

- now you are saying you sympathise that the farmer has lost his job, even though beforehand you said you couldn't care less about someone losing their job in an "outdated method".

You are very hypocritical in what you are saying.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

Seriously Toxis, I used to respect your ability to put forward reasoned debate, but now I am really starting to reconsider that respect.

If thats the way it is for you then so be it- i'm not in this thread to earn brownie points, and its not my fault that you've been hypocritical and forgetful in this thread (see my recent previous posts). Your respect does not matter to me if this is what you base it all on.
In any case, if you decide to come back and defend your points of view again, i will reply to your posts when i see them and have the time and can be motivated too (which i often am) .

 

[CFC]

i think this has gone on long enough now so i am closing it down

an interesting thread though.