Sexing My Bolivian Rams

[David J]

Hi

I've just bought 2 bolivian rams at the weekend. I have tried to get one male and one female but as I'm sure some of you know, it's not all that easy.

Here is a pic. The best pic I've managed to get tonight that shows them reasonably close and you can see their vents. I will try for more pics soon but this might be enough for someone with experience. Sorry you can't see the dorsal fin of the top one but hopefully the vent helps. I have my own opinion on what they are but don't want to lead anyone.

Please note that the one closet to the cameras dorsal is not fully extended in this pic.

http/i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/DavMars/9447a8277db707bc7f3fca47dbf79967.jpg

Thank you

David

 

[r.w.girard]

The bottom one is is female. The top one is a little hard to see but looks like it might be a female as well, although it could be a male.  The shape of the ventricle tube is the best indicator for sex: rounded and bulbous for a female (like in the picture) and splinter-like and swept back for a male.  Check some of the recent threads about sexing rams.  You'll find a link that a posted to a great guide for sexing rams.
 
But that is my guess: at least one female.  If you could get a picture of the upper one where the vent is not so blurry, it would really help. But if you think the lower one is a female and the upper one's vent is different, you can do the rest yourself.
 
Plus the bottom one looks great.  Upper a little ragged, but nothing some good feeding can't cure!

 

[David J]

The bottom one is is female. The top one is a little hard to see but looks like it might be a female as well, although it could be a male.  The shape of the ventricle tube is the best indicator for sex: rounded and bulbous for a female (like in the picture) and splinter-like and swept back for a male.  Check some of the recent threads about sexing rams.  You'll find a link that a posted to a great guide for sexing rams.
 
But that is my guess: at least one female.  If you could get a picture of the upper one where the vent is not so blurry, it would really help. But if you think the lower one is a female and the upper one's vent is different, you can do the rest yourself.
 
Plus the bottom one looks great.  Upper a little ragged, but nothing some good feeding can't cure!

Hi

Thank for replying. Obviously I have very little experience with this but after reading up etc I felt the one at the front was a male. Reasons are that compared to the other ram, this ones vent seems to point backwards and slightly pointed. I know you can't see the other one very well. The vent on the one at the back seems more rounded and pointing straight down although sometimes when i look it appears to point back. I will try and get some better pictures up of the second one. Also, the one at the front has slightly longer 2nd and 3rd spikes on the dorsal fin although again you can't see it very well here as it is not fully extended. Trying to get a good picture when it is fully up is tough. I will post more pics.

I know what you mean about the one at the back being a bit raggy. It is a little smaller than the other one and is overall darker. It only has a black spot on one side. I wonder if that is unusual? The other one has coloured up beautifully. It was pale at first but after 24 hours it really transformed. Both seem happy enough. Neither one appears interested in any of their new tank mates but the bigger chases the smaller now and again. Nothing nasty though. I did notice the chasing went on a little longer than normal during feeding time.

Would you recommend anything in particular to improve the appearance of the one at the back or will it just settle over time?

Thanks

David

 

[attibones]

The one in the front clearly has a pink belly which means it is a female.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Attibones I think you're thinking of German rams as Bolivians don't get pink bellies and both male and female bolivians have orange colouration.

 

[attibones]

Attibones I think you're thinking of German rams as Bolivians don't get pink bellies and both male and female bolivians have orange colouration.

Oh I feel stupid now. That's exactly what I was think. Oops.

 

[David J]

Hi

Here are some more pics. I took some video but for some reason photobucket keeping failing when I upload the video from my ipad so just. Photos for now.


This one is the larger of the 2.
http/i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/DavMars/991af2cc5386c399a5d76029ce8eff1b.jpg

And these 2 pics are of the smaller one.
http/i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/DavMars/595edb88feb7776b02615f94a7fd8263.jpg
http/i639.photobucket.com/albums/uu120/DavMars/8fc9d1ecd93a749b738db068a941454a.jpg

I just can't make my mid up. I have watched them for ages now and sometimes the vent looks male and then sometimes it looks female.

Thanks again folks,

David

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Lol don't worry about it attibones

Looks like two females to me. But they are actually snowing signs of both for me at the moment lol they are young and so it will become more obvious with time. Be sure and keep a close eye on the smaller one, she is very thin and washed out. Just make sure she's getting plenty to eat at dinner time

BTW when I say showing signs of both, they seem to have male looking heads and female looking finnage. A better picture of the dorsal fins while extended would help.

 

[David J]

I fed frozen bloodworms yesterday and everything's seemed to red well but I will keep a close eye. I will see what I can do with a pic of extended dorsal fins. Easier said than done lol.

Thanks

David

 

[r.w.girard]

Yep. Definitely two females.  If you saw a mature female by itself, one might sex it as a male, by most of the defining traits: elongated dorsal fin, raised frontal spine, head shape, etc. But compared with a mature male, the differences are staggeringly obvious.  That is the only case that these characteristics are useful.  With juvenile rams, you really have to go with the ventricle tubes.  And by that, both are female.
 
I don't know if you ever did find that guide, but I am reposting it here: http/brc.moonfruit.com/#/sexing-guide/4528902946.
 
Good luck with fattening up the second female.  Of course, if you wanted to, you could always try to exchange her for a male at the LFS.

 

[David J]

Hi

Yes I did find that one thanks. It's a great guide. Thanks for having another look at my pics and I think you are right that they are 2 females. The bigger one has started to be a little more aggressive over the last 24 hours. I am a bit concerned about the smaller one. She is eating but not much. The bigger one chases her also t feeding time.

Any tips on what to feed her to try and get up weight up a bit?

Although I wanted one of each sex, I'm not keen on returning one for a male. It just doesn't seem right. I would feel terrible so I am happy with 2 females but really want to get this poor wee one healthy.

Thanks,

David

 

[r.w.girard]

You could try a divider during feeding time to keep them separated.  Really, you can use anything temporarily.  But that would help make sure that it is eating enough.  Rams also browse - meaning they sift sand, if you have sand - so dropping a couple of pellets around the tank would leave food for not-feeding time, which might also help.  Or else, putting the smaller fish in a quarantine tank.

 

[Alm0stAwesome]

Tetra prima and hikari micro wafers are both good quality foods that would fatten her up

 

[David J]

Hi

Update: both rams are eating but the weaker one not as much. The larger one is still bullying the smaller one. I've seen them locking lips a couple of times. The larger is almost always chasing the other. Watching them last night, after much chasing, the smaller one started hanging round about 2/3 towards the surface right in the corner and stayed their for ages. She looks absolutely miserable with very little colour. She is very dark in colour compared to the larger one which looks beautiful. The smaller e one hasn't fattened up at all that I can see.

I feel terrible seeing this. I know it's nature but its not nice to watch. I went into this expecting some territorial rivalry but this is totally one sided. I've never seem the other one fight back other than the lip locking. I'm considering trying to return her to the store but I don't want to give up on her but then again, maybe she'll get on better away from this one. Dunno what to do for the best. That's nearly 2 weeks they've been in. There are plenty places to hide but when the larger one goes roaming, as soon as she sees the other one she attacks.

Any opinions?

David

 

[r.w.girard]

Try to find another aquarist looking for a female ram and see if you can't swap it for an extra male [people often end up with the wrong one], rather than bringing it back to a store?  Or else, put up a divider so that it can grow a bit in peace.  Maybe once it gets a little stronger it will be able to fend for itself better.  But, if you keep a weak fish in the tank, it will be stressed, increasing the likelihood of disease which can then spread.