Seem to be losing all my molly fish :(

[mollydesperation]

Tank size: 250L
tank age: 1 Year
pH: 7.4
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0ppm
nitrate: 20ppm
kH: 240 ppm (mg/L)
gH: 180 ppm (mg/L)
tank temp: 24C


Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior):

I have had a large amount of my molly fish get very ill. I'm not sure whats caused it. There has been nothing changed in the tank and nothing new added. I have got a few fish that are constantly hiding and resting on their side, unable to move around much. One that currently her back constantly floats to the top and keeps slowly struggling to swim. I have had a few that got very thing then passed. All of these fish i have isolated and performed constant water changes. I have had 2 fish who have gone in a bent S shape and have shortly passed.

I have tried melafix in the attempt that it was dropsy. That failed to help or prevent any more deaths. I completed a course of that and then went back to my aquatics store who recommended Fritz Maracyn Two. I completed a course of that, but still my fish dont seem to be surviving anything.



Volume and Frequency of water changes:
As this has been going on for weeks, I have tried 50% water changes, small daily changes and a complete tank clean.

Chemical Additives or Media in your tank:
All water treatment is from API, has been for years. Tried melafix and maracyn two treatment.

Tank inhabitants:
20 molly fish remaining

Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration):
None

Exposure to chemicals:
None other than treatment

Digital photo (include if possible):

The mainly black molly has had a white patch appear on top of her head recently, but doesnt seem to be white enough for ick.

I am my last legs with my fish, Ive had them for 4 years and recently they have just completely degraded in health.

 

[Ichthys]

Your water is far too soft for Mollies. They need hard water.

 

[mollydesperation]

Apologies, have just retested. GH is 180, KH is 240. The test kit I have doesnt test past that.

Would that still be too soft?

 

[Ichthys]

No, that should be ok.

What foods have they been getting?

 

[mollydesperation]

I have tried a range of different flake food from Aquarian and other companies. Never had an issue with the brands I used and its been the same for the past few years.

Update, the white molly is now darting around uncontrollably in circles.

 

[TNG]

Could it be that they passed due to old age?

 

[mollydesperation]

Could it be that they passed due to old age?

No. This tank is no more than a year old. The fish are no more than a year old as I bread them myself. It is most of my older ones that have dropped off recently though. But even then they were no more than a year old. Small ones seems to be alright, but even then I have lost some younger ones.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Apologies, have just retested. GH is 180, KH is 240. The test kit I have doesnt test past that.

Would that still be too soft?

180 what? Need the measurement since there are a few different ways to measure it, and mollies really need water with a GH at or above 250ppm, but many GH test kits only measure up to 180ppm, even if the water is harder than that, so what measurement is saying 180 (ppm?) and are you going by a test kit for this? Because we can likely get a more accurate measurement of the GH through your water companies water reports - @Essjay is the one who can really understand and explain this stuff, much better than I can!

No, that should be ok.

What foods have they been getting?

Mollies do need harder than 180ppm, they need 250ppm GH or more to really thrive long term. I'm not good with the chemistry, but as a molly fan who lives in a hard water area of 253ppm, I wouldn't rule out the GH being potentially the problem.

@mollydesperation what happens is soft water fish evolved in water low in minerals, so they adapted to hold onto as many as they can when they find them. When they're put in hard water, way more minerals than their bodies are adapted to, they hold onto too much, and blockages start to affect the internal organs like the kidneys. So they can look fine for a long time, even years, but have internal problems going on due to the mineral build up, then pass away much earlier than expected as a result.

Hard water fish like livebearers, especially mollies who need it harder than even guppies or platies do, have evolved to excrete excess minerals. They continue to do that, so in soft water they don't have the mineral levels they need. So they might be okay for a while, especially in middling water, but eventually they suffer internal problems from the lack of minerals and either fail to thrive, or seem okay for a while, maybe even years, but pass away younger than expected.
5-6 years is average life expectancy for most mollies, so are the ones you're losing now the ones you originally stocked the tank with four years ago? Or are younger ones also passing away?

Can't rule out some kind of disease, I would begin with salt treatment personally, look at @Colin_T 's posts for dosages. Mollies are very salt tolerant, can live in brackish water even, and salt is a good anti-fungal, looking at the photos of the molly.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Tank size: 250L
tank age: 1 Year

Tank inhabitants:
20 molly fish remaining



I am my last legs with my fish, Ive had them for 4 years and recently they have just completely degraded in health.

Update, the white molly is now darting around uncontrollably in circles.

Any chance you could shoot a short video of the tank and fish? video upload feature on the site doesn't work, but if you upload to youtube and link it here, people can see it.
The darting around can indicate panic and a problem with the water agitating the fish, but if it's more like uncontrollable spinning or going in circles, usually indicates something neurological and affecting the brain, like an infection that has affected the brain and nervous system, or possibly something protozoan.

Once fish are on the substrate and make that awful S shape, it means they're dying and likely suffering. Very unlikely to recover at that point, and I would euthanise with clove oil any fish that reach that desperate stage so their suffering isn't drawn out.

No. This tank is no more than a year old. The fish are no more than a year old as I bread them myself. It is most of my older ones that have dropped off recently though. But even then they were no more than a year old. Small ones seems to be alright, but even then I have lost some younger ones.

I'm a bit confused whether the tank/fish are a year old at most, or stock from over the past four years. If they're bred from stock you bought four years ago, what happened to the original mollies? How long did they live, roughly?

 

[mollydesperation]

180 what? Need the measurement since there are a few different ways to measure it, and mollies really need water with a GH at or above 250ppm, but many GH test kits only measure up to 180ppm, even if the water is harder than that, so what measurement is saying 180 (ppm?) and are you going by a test kit for this? Because we can likely get a more accurate measurement of the GH through your water companies water reports - @Essjay is the one who can really understand and explain this stuff, much better than I can!


Mollies do need harder than 180ppm, they need 250ppm GH or more to really thrive long term. I'm not good with the chemistry, but as a molly fan who lives in a hard water area of 253ppm, I wouldn't rule out the GH being potentially the problem.

@mollydesperation what happens is soft water fish evolved in water low in minerals, so they adapted to hold onto as many as they can when they find them. When they're put in hard water, way more minerals than their bodies are adapted to, they hold onto too much, and blockages start to affect the internal organs like the kidneys. So they can look fine for a long time, even years, but have internal problems going on due to the mineral build up, then pass away much earlier than expected as a result.

Hard water fish like livebearers, especially mollies who need it harder than even guppies or platies do, have evolved to excrete excess minerals. They continue to do that, so in soft water they don't have the mineral levels they need. So they might be okay for a while, especially in middling water, but eventually they suffer internal problems from the lack of minerals and either fail to thrive, or seem okay for a while, maybe even years, but pass away younger than expected.
5-6 years is average life expectancy for most mollies, so are the ones you're losing now the ones you originally stocked the tank with four years ago? Or are younger ones also passing away?

Can't rule out some kind of disease, I would begin with salt treatment personally, look at @Colin_T 's posts for dosages. Mollies are very salt tolerant, can live in brackish water even, and salt is a good anti-fungal, looking at the photos of the molly.

180 GH ppm (mg/L)

I had a previous group of mollies that passed of old age before I moved houses. I had some left that i decided to breed together about a year ago after I moved houses. I am losing old and young yes but it seems all of a sudden all together.
I believe the water here may be softer than my previously place. My previous mollies lasted upwards of 4-5 years.

I will begin salt treatment today after reading through that post. What's the best / safest way to harden my water at the moment? Should I start that now or wait until after salt treatment?

 

[mollydesperation]

Any chance you could shoot a short video of the tank and fish? video upload feature on the site doesn't work, but if you upload to youtube and link it here, people can see it.
The darting around can indicate panic and a problem with the water agitating the fish, but if it's more like uncontrollable spinning or going in circles, usually indicates something neurological and affecting the brain, like an infection that has affected the brain and nervous system, or possibly something protozoan.

Once fish are on the substrate and make that awful S shape, it means they're dying and likely suffering. Very unlikely to recover at that point, and I would euthanise with clove oil any fish that reach that desperate stage so their suffering isn't drawn out.


I'm a bit confused whether the tank/fish are a year old at most, or stock from over the past four years. If they're bred from stock you bought four years ago, what happened to the original mollies? How long did they live, roughly?

See above reply about the age of the tank and the fish. Will get a video over now, although she he has calmed down a bit.

For the one that did get in the unfortunate S shape I did euthanise them

 

[mollydesperation]

Any chance you could shoot a short video of the tank and fish? video upload feature on the site doesn't work, but if you upload to youtube and link it here, people can see it.

You can also see the one with the white patch on his head hiding behind

 

[mollydesperation]

At this point im so worried that anything I do or obviously don't do is going to wipe out the last of my fish.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Should I follow this dosage?

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I'm sorry you're going through this! I'm extremely fond of mollies myself, have been through similar crises in the hobby, so my heart does go out to you! If I sound short it's only because I'm pushed for time and also trying to organise a funeral right now, but also want to help! Because I do know how heart-breaking it is, and can see why it's a bit of a scary mystery. So trying to help where my limited knowledge can, and also tagging people in like chemistry person @Essjay , disease and illness person @Colin_T , and our livebearer expert @emeraldking in the hope they can help!

180 GH ppm (mg/L)

Did a test kit give you that measurement? Because as you say, it only measures up to 180ppm, which means your water could easily be harder than that. @Essjay is much better with this than I so hopefully she can come help soon, but if you check your water suppliers website for a water quality report, she can help you find the right numbers and convert them to the right fishkeeping measurements.

Alternatively, API does have test kits for GH and KH, and most fish stores can test the GH and KH for you if you take a sample of your source water to them and give you a more accurate number of what water you're really working with. Sorting out whether the GH is suitable for them is less urgent, but still important before we worry about whether you need to harden the water and how, ya know?
It is easier to harden water than soften it, thankfully, using rift lake salts, but lets find out precise GH numbers before worrying about whether to change the fish you keep to match whatever your water is, or if your water is actually above 250ppm, and just that the measurement from the dip strip test only goes to 180 max.

I had a previous group of mollies that passed of old age before I moved houses. I had some left that i decided to breed together about a year ago after I moved houses. I am losing old and young yes but it seems all of a sudden all together.
I believe the water here may be softer than my previously place. My previous mollies lasted upwards of 4-5 years.

That sounds like it could be the case, but it could also be some kind of infection/parasite that's been bought in at some point. Do you ever visit stores and add new fish or plants to the tank? Any chance it could have been contaminated? Nothing new added in the weeks/months prior to the losses beginning?

I will begin salt treatment today after reading through that post. What's the best / safest way to harden my water at the moment? Should I start that now or wait until after salt treatment?

Salt water treatment won't hurt, but I think after seeing the video that something else is going on. There's something wrong with the brain of that white spinning molly so it can't orient itself, and I don't like the look of the (gorgeously coloured, but unhappy) black mottled fish hiding under the wood, or the clamped fins on the others.

That video is heart-breaking, so sorry you're going through this.

The tank is bare bottom, is this the hospital tank for the ailing fish? Any chance of a vid of the main tank and remaining healthier looking fish? Sorry to pester with so many questions and demands, but video can tell us a lot, and the more info we can gather from you, the better chance that someone here can figure out what's happening and how to fix it.

@Colin_T would value your opinion here! I'm thinking maybe a protozoan in the brain, but I suppose could also be a viral or bacterial infection that has reached the brain? And I don't know how you'd figure out which, or what treatment would be best to try.

 

[mollydesperation]

Did a test kit give you that measurement? Because as you say, it only measures up to 180ppm, which means your water could easily be harder than that. @Essjay is much better with this than I so hopefully she can come help soon, but if you check your water suppliers website for a water quality report, she can help you find the right numbers and convert them to the right fishkeeping measurements.

Annoyingly the only kits i was able to get my hands on recently were the API 5 in 1 which only goes up to 180 for GH. and 240 for KH. All other test have been done with API master test kits. Looking into my water quality report now.

That sounds like it could be the case, but it could also be some kind of infection/parasite that's been bought in at some point. Do you ever visit stores and add new fish or plants to the tank? Any chance it could have been contaminated? Nothing new added in the weeks/months prior to the losses beginning?

The tank is bare bottom, is this the hospital tank for the ailing fish? Any chance of a vid of the main tank and remaining healthier looking fish? Sorry to pester with so many questions and demands, but video can tell us a lot, and the more info we can gather from you, the better chance that someone here can figure out what's happening and how to fix it.

Nothing has been added for months. I took all the substrate out as it was getting old. All plants had recently gone past their time too as they were a few years old but they've been taken out too. Nothing new has been in for quite some time because of the issue and i've not wanted to risk anything getting in. This is why im really confused as I don't see how anything external could've got in to the tank. Will send over a video of the rest of the tank in a moment. It is quite bare at the moment just to prevent any of the fish that can't control their movements from getting caught.

Salt water treatment won't hurt, but I think after seeing the video that something else is going on. There's something wrong with the brain of that white spinning molly so it can't orient itself, and I don't like the look of the (gorgeously coloured, but unhappy) black mottled fish hiding under the wood, or the clamped fins on the others.

The white one has only started doing that this morning. But his health only started getting obviously bad the other day.

The black mottled one im really worried about, has been hiding for 2 days and has just been getting worse. Unfortunately most of the fish i have lost have been similar colours.