Sand And Ph Question!

[lewiss]

Hi,

I lost a couple of fish a weeks ago nd yesterday went to my local marine shop with some water to test to see if I could have an ananome. They tested it nd said my ph was lowe on 7.6 (my test tht morning stated 8.0) I also had WAY too much calcium, and high salt. Sorry I'm new I didn't no I had to test for them!

Anyway to cut a long story short they said their test was more accurate and the water wa at 7.6 which is likely how my fish died! They asked me questions about my tank and set up, which I told them the answers.

One thing tht came out was tht they said I had to much sand! And to take it out so tht only a small amount was at the bottom, and tht this may be the cause of a low PH. So I went home, removed most of the sand, leaving a small layer at the bottom and used a PH increase powder. Tested and it was fine.

I woke up this morning and it was like a nuke had hit. Two dead fish (my favourite one) and my shrimp appearing dead (frozen) no signs of th others for ages but wen I saw them, all were breathing rapidly!! I was so gutted, really upset. Tested the water, I had through the roof nitrtes, ammonia high, PH low (showin at 7.8 on my test)

I did emergancy water change nd got all levels back, all others are ok, and shrimp seem ok. re- added the sand. Added PH booster getting it to 8.2 on my test, and just got back and tested again, it's 8.0! I've put my powerhead facing up at the surface as Seffie mentioned this to me previously.

My questions are:

What can i do to raise my PH?

What's causing the PH to go so low.

How much sand should I have and is it affecting my PH?

How do I lower calcium?

Ps. I have about 2 inches of sand at the bottom.

Thanks in advance..

Lewis

 

[-Nemo-]

That's a shame. Out of curiosity, how much sand did you have prior to removing some?
I see a couple of potential things which could have caused the deaths.

1) A good portion of your bacteria lives in your sand, therefore if you removed a lot, you could have taken too much out, or if you had a very large sand bed, disturbing it by taking sand out could have caused ammonia to be released.

2) If you tried raising your pH too much at once, that could also have caused it. Suddenly raising your pH from 7.6 to 8.2 is not good...


To answer your other questions,

What can i do to raise my PH?

There seems to be a confusing amount of numbers being tossed around for your pH. I would consider re-testing it first and try to get some kind of stable reading and have it tested by a second course to verify.
Note that your pH WILL naturally change throughout the day. It will be it's lowest at night and right after the lights are turned on, and it will be its highest mid-day to before the lights are off. I suggest testing the pH at least a few hours after the lights have been turned on for a mote accurate reading.

How much sand should I have and is it affecting my PH?

You said you have 2" in there now? If so, just leave that in there. What kind of sand are you using? I'm not sure how too much sand could lower your pH... I don't know if that was lfs BS or there's a reason, maybe someone else can chime in here. Generally using aragonite sand, will RAISE your pH. It acts as a natural buffer.


How do I lower calcium?

What was your reading? Generally you want your calcium between 400-450 ppm. But if you're doing regular water changes and aren't overloaded on calcium-using critters, you usually dont' have to worry about adding any. If your calcium is a little too high, it will come down naturally.



For now, do you have anything living left in the tank? Keep an eye on your levels if so...

 

[lewiss]

sorry to be confusing.. So much to say!! My PH was showing as 8.0, by my test kit. It was the raised by the buffer to 8.2. The next morning it showed 7.8. These readings all came from my test kit which is API test kit.

My PH was tested at the store by an electrical reader which registered as 7.6. The guy then used the same test kit I have and it showed my water as 8.0 like I said. He said tht the test I was using isn't accurate, and his electrical one was. He said tht I needed to raise the PH until my results show 8.6 as my test is 0.4 out.

So now I dnt no what my PH is and if it is .4 out, then my low in the tank was 7.4. Confsing I know. Hope tht males sense!!

My calcium levels are 800!!! Basically I added 3 corals, coral feed and a marine reef supliment which contains calcium! So overloaded massively!! I will just stop using it until it's down.

My sand was 2 inches before I removed any, I removed enough to make it under 1 inch. Very thin layer. I have since put it all back in and is therefore about 2 inches high again. I've never had ANY issues with nitrates and/or ammonia before tht.

Cheers for the answers though Nemo! What do you make of the above?

One other question! Can I turn my powerhead off at anytime? Or should it be on 24/7??

 

[-Nemo-]

pH meters generally need to be calibrated monthly to stay accurate, so if it hasn't been calibrated in a while, it could very well not be as accurate as the person thinks. Make buy another pH test for a few bucks and test it again. And like i said, beware of pH changes during the day.


800 wow... That's almost unbelievable. The highest i've ever seen is about 680 from someone... Myself and others have debated whether high calcium has a large impact on fish etc. We never really came to a conclusion. You might consider doing some water changes to try and get it down, having few corals in your tank will slow down calcium consumption. And yes, don't add calcium!


Leave your sand as it is now.

I forgot to ask before, what was your density at? Do you not have a hydrometer or refractometer to check on your own?

 

[lewiss]

Sorry density?? What does tht mean??

 

[-Nemo-]

the amount of salt in the water.

 

[lewiss]

the amount of salt in the water.

sorry they tested it in the shop and said it was 24.. If tht means anything to u. Apparently it's high nd should be 20/21

 

[-Nemo-]

That doesn't make sense for either scale used... Was it 1.024 perhaps? If so, it's fine.
You should really have at bare minimum a hydrometer to measure it yourself.

 

[lewiss]

I didn't know tht, I will get one. Basically all I test for is PH, Am, no2, and no3. Should I be testing for anything else?

 

[-Nemo-]

Density, as well as kH, phosphates and calcium are also handy to test.

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Hi Lewis,

I'm really sorry to hear about your losses. Its especially hard when you are new to the hobby and just trying to do things right but then get conflicting information which results in situations like this.

Lets take a look at what has happened.

Your PH was low (according to the LFS)
LFS said to remove sand (no idea why the hell they would say this, its ridiculous) and add PH buffer.
Despite them saying your salt levels where to high they didn't tell you how to fix that...
You removed the sand (this has a lot of potential for causing ammonia and nitrite spikes as all the crude that gets buried in the sand is suddenly stirred up).
This caused fish loses.
You did a water change and got ammonia/nitrate back to normal,
You added PH buffer to take PH up 0.4 points.
Additional - You have been adding reef supplements.
Additional - Your salinity levels are (according to the LFS) too high.

There's lots going on here and none of it is good for your livestock. Its not your fault but the worst of this is that it has come about because you where trying to do the best thing for your tank.

Salt/Salinity
Lets take salinity (salt) issue first. You REALLY need to get a hydrometer or refractometer. I would recommend a refractometer as these are easier to read. You salinity level (for a tank with corals in) needs to be between 1.024 to 1.027. Generally most people keep it around 1.026.
To safely decrease the salinity in your tank you need to do regular water changes with a lower salinity mix of salt. i.e. If your tank water is 1.028 do regular water changes with a mix of around 1.025 water over a period of a few weeks to bring the tank salinity down. The key is to do it slowly. Rapid changes in any tank parameter is MUCH worse then that parameter being out in the first place.

Calcium and Supplements
Unfortunately your have learnt the hard way the dangers of dosing supplements your not testing for. I really hate these "reef supplements" that are sold. the supplements themselves can work great (when used properly) but the thing is that they make the new people think that they "must" use them (I felt exactly the same when I got into the hobby) and many LFS will reinforce this.

The truth is that unless you have a tank jam packed full of SPS corals which are growing quickly you do not need to dose anything. Regular water changes with a good quality brand of salt with replace anything that is used up.

The other important lesson is to never dose anything into your tank unless you know exactly what it is and are testing for it.

PH
As Nemo said, PH will go up and down a bit during the day. This is normal. 7.6 (if this is correct) is low for a marine tank but as long as its stable it wouldn't instantly kill anything (particularly fish). I run my old marine tank at a PH of 7.8 for over a year and never had any issue.

The other thing to remember with PH (and as above, all parameters) that rapid swings are more deadly to livestock then a parameter that is slightly out but stable. PH works on a log scale some the difference between 7.6 and 8.0 is not 0.4 higher but something like 50 times higher.

Again before using buffers etc take a look at your brand of salt. Some salts do mix up to a lower PH and changing salt brands can resolve this problem. If you do have to resort to buffers then do it VERY slowly over the course of weeks.

Sand
Unless someone can tell us otherwise I think your LFS was talking out of their behind on this one. 2inch sandbed should not lower your PH. As above disturbing the sand bed will stir all the crude into the water column and cause spikes so it should be avoided as much as possible. If you do have to replace or disturb the sand bed to any big degree make sure you follow up with a large water change and keep a close eye on water parameters for the next couple of days. This is even more important when you have a deep sand band (over an 1 inch).

What I would do in your situation:
First I'm assuming that you buy your salt pre-mixed? If this is the case I would highly recommend investing in an RO unit and mixing your own salt. This way you know that the RO is good and you can mix the salt to your own needs and change brands if you have too.

Get a refractometer, these can be had for about £30 and while they are not necessarily more accurate than a hydrometer they are easier to read.

Now you need to find out what your actual salinity is in your tank and adjust your water changes accordingly to bring it to what level you want (remember to do this slowly over a couple of weeks).

You will also need to do regular water changes to bring your calcium down and stop using all additives (which you already have).

Its going to take a few weeks to get everything back to normal again. Don't be tempted to rush things to get the levels right as this will be more stressful to the livestock then gradually adjusting things. Just keep up with regular water changes with a good salt mix and don't add anything else to the tank.

Hope it all goes well for you. Make sure you keep us updated and ask as many questions as you want. Someone on here will always be happy to help.

 

[seffieuk]

Oh Lewis, please, please stop listening to the lfs - ask us on here before taking such steps and we will always help you.

Golden rule:

Never add anything to a marine tank that you have first not researched or tested for

The lfs are out to sell you stuff, we are not So for now do as both Nemo and Barney have suggested and also stay away from the lfs

Seffie x

 

[lewiss]

Seffie, I know! This has been the last straw. Everything had been going so well with the water Quality and I shouldn't have tried to fix what wasn't broken! Definately should have come here first but it's all a learning curb, and unfort mistakes are part of learning! I'm gutted and I will never listen to LFS again!

And may I say a HUGE thank you to all of u. Barney, Nemo and Seffie for all of your help! I will do eerything you say barney and here's hoping all will go back to normal!

One thing I have to ask, I'm very worried about doing my own mix of water!! Are things likely to go even more wrong if I do that?

The salt is high because I add the pre-mix stuff and never just RO so when my water evaporates slightly I top up with more salt wter but the salt doesn't eveporate. School boy error! Anyway what would high salt do to my tank. And can I top it up a small amount with just ro?

Also, I have three corals, a finger, a mushroom, and a polyp. All are ok, the finger is magnificant and really taken to my tank, the mushroom did and was better than it had been in the shop, it really had flurished, but its now taking a long time to open and is going a bit White and powdery in some areas (my fear is it is dying) and my polyp is getting smaller and smaller, going White and crumbling. I guess this is down to the poor water quality. Is tht right and can I save them?

Once again Thank You all for the advice! I will get a thingy (what you said to test) today and let u no just how bad things are. Seriously Thank you!

 

[seffieuk]

We have all made those annoying type of school boy errors, you are certainly not alone

Get yourself the refractometer and lets see where we are with the sg and yes, top up with ro water.

Your water quality has taken a beating but mushies are hardy creatures, so fingers crossed they will pull through. Remember, everything in the salty world is taken at a slower pace for very good reasons

Chin up, it will get put right

Seffie x

 

[xxBarneyxx]

Topping off with Saltwater... ouch that would probably account for the original fish loses. if it makes you feel any better you are not the first person I have met who has done this and you sure wont be the last.

First thing you need to do then is as you said, find out exactly how bad it it.

Make sure that your topping off with RO water now. You can remove a small amount of tank water and replace with RO water but you have to be VERY careful about doing this. By reducing the salinity in the tank in this way you run a big risk of over doing it and dropping the salinity to quickly. This could quite easily kill everything in there.

What is the water volume of the tank?

Depending on the water volume of the tank I would remove a small amount of water out of the tank and replace it with RO, then leave it an hour and test the salinity. The exact amount of water to remove depends on tank volume but start off very small (I would guess around 5% tank volume at most, less for a small tank).

I would not recommend dropping the salinity by more than 0.001 per day. If it is out by a lot then I would not drop 0.001 a day for more then 4 or 5 days in a row and then give them a couple of days break before doing it again. I must note I have no actual reason for these figures (i.e. I haven't researched how much change livestock can take to salinity) but having observed my tanks after having big salinity swings I can say a lot of livestock doesn't react well to it.

Regarding mixing your own water. I would say there is less potential for things to go wrong when you mix your own. A lot of LFS I know rarely change their RO membranes which means they don't work as well (so you start getting phosphate and nitrates in the RO water). Also you never know what brand of salt they are using or if they suddenly change the salinity they are making it up to (a lot of LFS will go for the cheapest brand salt they can get and mix it to a lower salinity to save money on it. this is fine for Fish only tanks but when you have corals you need to know that things are going to be right).

Basically you need an RO unit, a spare power head, a spare heater, refractometer and something to mix it in.

I would recommend an RO/DI unit as the DI resin will help the RO membrane last a lot longer. I paid about £90 for my RO/DI unit over 4 years ago and only recently had to replace the membrane. Assuming I have only used 25l a week (I have used way more than that) I have saved over £500 by having my own RO unit over the last 4 years (probably actually a lot more than that, even counting in the cost of buying salt).

Just put your RO water into a container, add the powerhead and heater and then bring it up to temperature (some people mix it cold). Then add your salt gradually and wait for it to mix in properly. Test and adjust as needed (if its too low add more salt, too high add more RO). Leave to mix (ideally overnight) and then use for your water change.

I use a powerhead that I can attach a hose to. This way when the salt is all mixed I put a hose on the powerhead and it pumps the fresh water up to the tank (saves lifting heavy buckets of saltwater and pouring them into the tank).

It is very easy to do and if you do find that your salt brand is lacking something you can always change it (not something you can do if you buy from your LFS).

Once you have made up your first batch of salt water always use the same container for the water and the same container for measuring salt out (i.e. a cup). this way as long as you use the same amount of water and same amount of salt each time you can get the salinity pretty much bang on right away (always double check it though with a refractometer).

For example in the container I use if I fill it to the "bottom lip" I need to add 6 glasses of salt to get 1.026 salinity. Makes it a lot easier (though sometimes requires minor adjustment up or down).