Sand And Ph Experiment

[Byron]

Akasha, you are a very knowledgeable and dedicated fish keeper.  These little setbacks are frustrating, I know.  But we can beat them.
 
I cannot offer anything on the phosphate issue, other than to say that I believe there is filter media that can deal with this.  I'll leave this for the more expert on this topic.  Same for the flukes...I rarely enter disease threads because of my limited knowledge and experience in that area.  But I can hopefully ease your mind on the sand/pH issue.
 
I have tanks in which the pH is well below 5 [my lowest kit tests 5.0 and above, and it is much more yellow than even the 5 colour], and others where it remains in the mid-6 range.  My tap water is 7.0 or 7.2, achieved by the addition of sodium carbonate (commonly, soda ash) and calcium hydroxide (lime).  The latter is a new addition; the former (soda ash) has been added since 2001.  These are added to maintain a higher pH to avoid pipe erosion; there is basically zero GH and KH, so no buffers in the source water.  I have been doing 50-60% water changes continually, but they impact little on the individual tanks' pH.  I did a succession of pH (and GH) tests pre and post water change and for successive days for several weeks so I am fairly confident of this.
 
The fluctuation in pH is not as much of an issue as many think, provided it is not drastic.  If I were you, I would do a series of tests like I did, and see where the numbers fall.  Bear in mind too, that GH/KH is actually the more important, and these are not likely to change much if at all unless you are specifically targeting them with buffers of some sort [which I will not use].  The biological stability that will establish in an aquarium with regular partial water changes, and assuming stocking and feeding are relative to volume, is fairly resistant.
 
Ask any questions if you'd like me to explain my processes/tests further.  

 

[Akasha72]

thanks for your kind words Byron. I have learned a lot over the years - mostly because I've had various problems and had help on various forums. The only area I'm not confident in is chemistry. I was never good at the sciences in school (in fact I wasn't acedemic at all and I still arn't) and so anything to do with the chemistry side of things and I get all insecure.
 
I've been told many many times (it's been seriously drilled into me to the point of stressing me out way too much) that my water is a problem and it's killing my fish that I worry about it. Despite that, I know I have the right fish (the SAE's aside) for the water I have but that doesn't stop me worrying. 
 
I know fish are exposed to pH fluctuations in the wild - especially in places like the Amazon - when the rains come and that they can cope with these fluctuations. I can remember once reading an article somewhere that suggested spending an hour acclimatizing new fish was pointless as fish can take several hours so even notice there has been a pH change and start to deal with it. I no longer spend too long acclimatizing new fish and I've never had any problems with this which could support the theory that I read. I don't talk about this as I know the response some will have to it and I can't deal with the arguements that ensue. I just do my own thing and keep my mouth shut (until now! ...oops)
That said, I'm still not 100% confident in changing large amounts of water in my tank just in case I'm completely wrong and I harm the fish that I care a lot about.
 
There is also the phosphate issue which is coming out of my tap. According to my JBL PO4 test a reading above 1.2 is dangerous to the fish. The reading from my tap in 1.8! I've not been able to find anything on what it actually does to the fish but from what I've seen it makes the fish lethargic at best, and suseptable to parasites at worst ... parasites that I still can't completely find out what they are. I'm calling them body flukes but they don't 100% fit the bill and I still can't work out how these parasites are entering the tank. Nothing is new and they wern't there next week so where are they coming from? It's all very odd.
 
I do add products to my filters to 'soak up' the phosphate. I've used NTLabs phosphate remover for a while but recently I couldn't get hold of any and so I got JBL's phosex instead ... and found out it's not as good as the NTLabs one. This would seem to be because it has a different composition. The NTLabs one is made up of small white pellets and the JBL one of orangey/brown pellets. Someone did once tell me that there are two different types of phosphate removers made up of different things but I can't remember now what he said the composition was. 
I'm not back to using the NTLabs remover and I will stick with it ... even if I have to drive far and wide to get hold of it!
 
I know I can ask questions, but a lot of the time I don't fully understand the answers - mostly because of what I described above - my mind just isn't geared up that way!
 
Anyway, sorry for rambling ;/

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Here is one thing you might want to try in the sand tank. Put a bag with crushed coral into your filter. I would suggest you start with about 3/4 cup per 50 gals. (190L). This will take a number of days to work as it will be slowly dissolving. In larger amounts this would move both your KH and GH up. It is used as a substrate in sw and rift lake cichlid tanks. In a small amount in a filter it will mostly bump up the KH and barely move the GH if at all. What this should do is raise the carbonates. These are used in a tank for a number of things, including providing a source of inorganic carbon for the nitrifying bacteria. It is also what holds pH up. In your case I am hoping it will prevent it from dropping.
 
The nice part about using a small amount like this is even if it fails to help with the pH issues, it wont cause any problems either. 13 years ago to get some crushed coral for this purpose I had to buy a 20 or 25 pound bag. I will be dead and gone long before i can ever use it up. I suggest you ask people you know who do sw or rift lake tanks if they have some and could let you have a cup. If not, try your LFS, they may be nice enough to give or sell you a small amount.
 
If you want to try messing with a chemical solution, you can use calcium carbonate. (25 gm- Price: £1.00 FREE UK delivery.) http/www.amazon.co.uk/Aqua-Reefer-Calcium-Carbonate-Limestone/dp/B00GX8XND4/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1429749368&sr=1-1&keywords=Aqua+Reefer+Tiger+Calcium+Carbonate
(You can get 10 times that much for £3.20 if you want, but this is a reasonable test amount)
 
"To raise both GH and KH simultaneously, add calcium carbonate (CaCO3). 1/2 teaspoon per 100 liters of water will increase both the KH and GH by about 1-2 dH."
from http/fins.actwin.com/aquariafaq.html
 
I would start with 1/4 teaspoon and test in 30 minutes. Then wait for about 1/2 day or so and repeat. And test again. Raising your GH and KH by 1-2 points that slowly should not make a significant difference in the overall parameters and your fish should be fine with that.

 

[RobRocksFishTank]

If you ever misplace that bag of crushed coral, TTA, I've got 1/2 of a 5 gal. bucket full of it. You are more than welcome to a cup or two.

 

[Akasha72]

Hi TTA - I already have coral rock and ocean rock in both of my filters. It's not doing anything to help. 
 
I was speaking recently to a guy on an angelfish forum who lives close by. His pH is worse than mine - it's 5.5 out of his tap. He's got hold of a substrate that's helped raise his level up (he's added it to his filter in media bags) and so I've got the name of it written down and I'm hoping to find some on my travels at some point - no luck so far but I'll keep looking.
 
The pH I have is fine for my stock - they all love the soft acidic water (apart from the SAE's that is) so it's not too urgent that I raise things. It's a case of - if I see this stuff I'll get some and add it to my filter. If I don't well ... I'll struggle on.
 
I'm feeling much less stressed today. The tetra has still got what ever these 'things' are that's stuck in it's body but I was watching him spawn with one of the females last night so he's obviously not bothered by them. 
I've not tested my PO4 yet as from experience it takes a few days for the remover to start working. I'm hoping once that phosphate starts to fall again the tetra will lose what ever these 'parasites' are

 

[Byron]

I can add some observations on the crushed coral and buffering issue, as I've gone through it.
 
I used crushed coral as TTA suggested, and it did absolutely nothing to my GH and KH but sent my pH soaring from 6.4 up to 7.6 within a couple days.  I tried this twice, with the same result, in two different tanks.  This shows that other factors are playing into this too, and I suspect here it may be my initial zero GH and KH in the source water.  TTA likely has some of both of these.  I only used three tablespoons in the filter in a nylon mesh bag, to cause the afore-mentioned.  Needless to say, I was not going to tolerate a pH above 7, so out it came.
 
Back in the mid 1990's, I went through a similar process but using dolomite instead of coral.  That worked, at least it raised the pH and maintained it around 6.4-6.6 but I've no idea what it did to the GH and KH as I never tested those back then.  My tap water at that time was zero GH/KH with a pH at or below 5.  Those were in the days before they began using soda ash as I explained in my previous post.  I believe aragonite might work the same, or so I thought, but using aragonite more recently (after the crushed coral trials) also sent my pH soaring.  They are now adding the soda ash, and more recently calcium hydroxide, so presumably these too factor in.
 
I decided to give up on "buffering" which really shouldn't matter if the fish species are suited.  I use Equilibrium in three of seven tanks, solely to raise the GH from zero to around 5 or 6 dGH, and solely for the benefit of the larger swords which otherwise have calcium deficiencies.  It has worked for the plants, and the GH I must assume is not harming the fish.  In the other tanks I let the chemistry do what it wants.  The GH and KH are zero, and the pH is lower, around 5 or 6 depending upon the tank.
 
The other point I wanted to add Akasha about water changes is that the more water changed, the more stable should become the chemistry.  I am certain this is why my tanks remain so stable from week to week and month to month.  Each tank establishes its chemistry according to my 50-60% water changes, additives (or not), fish and foods.  I prefer to leave it there, as I rely more on nature than my meddling.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

you know ... the more I talk to you Byron the more confident I start to feel that my gut feeling of just leaving things as they are, keep the stock that I keep, and stop meddling is the best thing.
 
I've been diagnosed today by my G,P with severe stress and told I need to find ways of relaxing more or face taking medication. I take enough pills ... I don't need to take any more. So because of that I'm going to stop worrying about my pH and gH and kH ... it's not worth making myself ill over. 
 
I need to work out how long the phosphate remover lasts and write a note in my diary to remind myself to change it at a certain point - that will help and stop the stress of the fish being sick cos the phosphate level has got away from me again. 
 
And about the phosphate remover - I was in touch via email last night with the member who taught me about the phosphate removers. He's reminded me about their make up so I'll just type it up here for anyone interested...
 
Phosphate removers are generally only used in marine set ups where phosphate is a problem. In my case it's a problem because it's in my tap water at high levels. 
Phosphate removers come in two different types. One is Iron based and is usually orange/brown in colour. The other type is Aluminium based and is white in colour. Aluminium based phosphate removers work best in soft water. This explains why the JBL phosphate remover doesn't work very well for me (it's orange/brown in colour and so must be Iron based) The NTLabs remover is white and works well and lasts well too. 
 
Another way to help remove phosphate is to add some submerged plants apparently but this relies on having an open topped tank which in my case isn't an option because SAE's are notorious jumpers.
 
That's about it

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Byron, I am surprised you had the pH bump but not the KH using crushed coral. In all the time i used it it never changed my pH but did keep my KH up. I used it in my planted tank with pressurized co2. But as you say my water has both GH and KH and a neutral pH from the tap. If your water had 0 KH then adding any should raise pH fast and a bunch. I have the reverse problem in the altum tank. I need to get KH out so I can drop the pH.
 
Akasha, keeping fish which do well in our tap is always a good idea. Its less work for us and better for the fish. Sitting and watching a tank filled with fish is supposed to be relaxing and to help reduces stress Stop fretting so much and start sending more time just watching them.
 

For millions of Americans, long hours, too much coffee and a frenetic work pace are the norm, not to mention the added stress of war, a struggling economy and terrorism alerts.

What's a good, healthy way to soothe your jangled nerves?

One proven way is to prop your feet up and watch your fish swim serenely through your aquarium. Research has found that pets calm nerves and lower blood pressure. And aquariums particularly seem to have a soothing effect. In fact, many doctor offices keep aquariums in the waiting room. Watching fish swim to and fro lowers the stress of waiting to be examined.

Research buttressed what many fish enthusiasts already know: the therapeutic benefits of aquariums. In 1999, a study showed that displaying tanks of brightly colored fish curtailed disruptive behaviors of Alzheimer patients. The fish were also credited with improving eating habits. Other studies also showed that fish calmed children diagnosed with attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder.

from http/www.petplace.com/article/fish/general/enjoying-your-fish/does-having-an-aquarium-decrease-stress
 
 
Here are a few products you can use for removing phosphate (top 2 are aluminum based, 3rd is a fiber):
http/www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/PhosGuard.html
http/www.apifishcare.com/product.php?p=details&id=548
http/www.poly-bio-marine.com/
 
Finally, there is no reason you cannot have a top on a planted tank. All of mine have always had lids.

 

[Byron]

Another way to help remove phosphate is to add some submerged plants apparently but this relies on having an open topped tank which in my case isn't an option because SAE's are notorious jumpers.
 

 
I had missed the specifics of this sentence until TTA mentioned it in his following post.  And I agree with him...all my tanks have covers, and I will not have open-topped tanks for reasons I won't get into now, other than to say that fish jumping out, especially in darkness, is a real possibility, and some of these are the most unlikely, one would think.
 
I'm wondering if perhaps the "submerged" means terrestrial plants with roots submerged in the aquarium?  Some people have houseplants sitting above or beside the aquarium, with roots hanging in the water, and this is said to use phosphates.  One does have to be careful as to which plants though...philodendron are often suggested, but these have a highly toxic white sap that I believe will kill fish should it enter the water.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

houseplants with submerged roots was what I meant - sorry to mislead! Apparently the roots take up the phosphate and so they would help in reducing it for me but as I said - my tank needs a lid when the SAE's are notorious jumpers and I've already lost one Harlequin due to jumping!
 
this is the phosphate remover I use http/www.ntlabs.co.uk/products/Marine%3A-Phosphate-Remover-Media.html It's aluminium based and seems to work far better than the Iron based one's

 

[frapadoodle]

Just a quick word about the submerged plants. Try some Pothos. Clip off a runner at a leaf joint. Each nub are potential roots. I tried it as an experiment for sucking up Nitrates. Wedge it in the lid at let it go. After a couple of months the sprig on my main tank has roots three quaters of the depth of a 21inch/53cm deep tank.
Couldn't hurt, and I kinda like the look of it flowing over the side of the tank.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

Akasha, there is one other option available you might want to consider- a veggie filter. Have a read here on this subject. Here is an excellent article was written by a legendary American fish keeper from whom I was fortunate enough to learn a lot when I started out in the hobby. This method is great for tanks where serious plants are not normally possible such as rift lake cichlid or plant eating fish tanks. It also works for situations where there are excess nutrients in one's tap which are causing issues and one cannot have sufficient plants in the tank to deal with them.
 
http/badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article69.html
 
Also, the solutions I suggested above included two aluminum based products and then the Poly-Fiber which removes more than just phosphate.

 

[Akasha72]

sorry TTA ... I didn't get chance to click on the link this morning as I didn't have time. I'm slowly catching up with things now though - thank you

I checked my PO4 this morning and it hadn't moved and so I opened the other filter and added some fresh in there too.... now both filters have fresh quantities of remover it should start shifting ... at least I hope it does.
 
My lfs sell that poly filter stuff. I've looked at it a few times but thought it was just another gimmick to get us spending our cash. I'm thinking again now.