Rosey red minnows (fatheads)

[SirMinion]

We do not routinely use feeder fish, but the few times that we have had too when weaning a fussy preditor, we've used guppies, tetras or small goldfish because the most commonly used feeder fish, rosey red minnows (Pimephales promelas), are simply never (or very rarely) available in the uk.

I'd often wondered why this is until today, while researching something else I discovered that you have to hold a licence to keep them!

It's because they are non-native fish that could easily survive in our native waters and out-compete our local fish.

Although the licences are issued free-of-charge, the law would require and fish store selling these minnows to see the buyers licence before selling them the fish.

Anyone found in possesion of the fish without a licence could be fined up to £2500.

We live and learn.

 

[smb7676]

I bet your glad you didn't find them and buy a whole bunch only to run into the "UK Fish Police" on your way out the door!!!!! That would really be a, "you live and learn" situation.
S

 

[OohFeeshy]

Feeders aren't even legal in the UK, are they? Naughty naughty

 

[SirMinion]

Feeders aren't even legal in the UK, are they? Naughty naughty

Actually not true. There is no specific law against using feeder fish, the actual law is against causing undue suffering which makes it a very grey area.

Here is a transcript of a letter from the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruely to Animals) that a member from this board (Black Angel) received when she wrote and asked for clarification on how the law stands with regard to using live fish as food.

Thank you for your e-mail about Feeder fish.
We have spoken to our Wildlife Department about this matter and they have said that as far as they are aware, there are no legal constraints on feeding live fish to other fish.
There is also no legislation that specifically allows the use of certain fish to feed certain other fish, such as suggested by the pet shop staff.
However, there is clear evidence that fish are 'sentient' (meaning that it has been proven that they feel pain). Such action of feeding live fish to other live fish could potentially be an offence under the Protection of Animals Act 1911, if a vet agreed that unneccesary suffering had been caused to the fish fed to the other fish. The difficulty in proving there has been an offence committed, would be in trying to prove that the fish fed to the other fish were intentionally and knowingly caused pain by the pet shop staff because of their actions.
Piranhas (depending upon the species) will scavenge fish scales off live fish, take dead fish or meat sinking through the water, or if hungry enough, could attack other live fish. However, piranhas do not require the offering of live fish in captivity to trigger feeding, as feeding can also be triggered by dead meat/fish being dropped into their water tank.
Another issue that could have an inpact on the welfare of the piranhas and the live fish being added to their tank as their food, is that the taking of fish from one water environment and then releasing them straight into water of a different temperature, salinity etc., can instantly shock the a fish's system and could prove fatal. If after receiving this information you feel that the pet shop staff are practicing a method of feeding which is against the welfare of the fish concerned, you can contact our 24 hour National Advice and Cruelty Helpline on 0870 55 55 999 and report the pet shop concerned, in complete confidence.
One of our local RSPCA Inspectors can then visit the shop and discuss these practices with the staff and make recommendations on how best the piranhas can be fed in a humane way that does not involve feeding them live fish. Thank you for contacting us with your concerns.

Kind regards,
RSPCA Enquiries Service.

 

[wrs]

personally I think thats stupid.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Ah right, I'm sure I've heard (several times) on here that you can't feed something any live vertabrate....

 

[black angel]

my lfs has rosey reds now and again, im going to ask him if he has a licence next time im in.

 

[SirMinion]

my lfs has rosey reds now and again, im going to ask him if he has a licence next time im in.

Of course the law may be different in Scotland, the law I found specifically says it pertains to England & Wales and doesn't mention Scotland or Northern Ireland.

 

[smb7676]

Actually not true. There is no specific law against using feeder fish, the actual law is against causing undue suffering which makes it a very grey area.

I'm not into fish suffering but if our fish weren't in our tanks they would be eating other fish. So to me its more of a natural thing than cruel. I guess you can argue that the feeders can't "get away" but to me it seems like there are other things that would be more cruel.
Sir aren't you in the land of FIsh and chips? maybe this is just the Uk way of evening out the scales ( ).

With all that said I use commercial food 90% of the time but I will give a treat of Brine shrimp or BWorm) every now and again and I'm guessing the Bshrimp think there should be a law but I'm ok with this feeding system.
S

 

[SirMinion]

I've been looking into this some more, and it seems that in 2003 the list of fish banned by the law: "Prohibition of Keeping or Release of live Fish (specified species) Order 1998 " was added to and now includes quite a few fish that are still sometimes found in UK fish stores, including sterlets and the chinese high-fin sucker.

The full list can be found here.

 

[smb7676]

Here is a transcript of a letter from the RSPCA (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruely to Animals)
[
One of our local RSPCA Inspectors can then visit the shop and discuss these practices with the staff and make recommendations
Kind regards,
RSPCA Enquiries Service.

[/quote]

I think its great that you have someone looking out for fish over there. I had a problem with a LFS here and I called a good LFS to find out where to call to report them and was told that there really isn't a group that looks out for fish here in the US.

 

[bunjiweb]

We sell rosy minnows at work. Infact we have 3 or 4 tanks of them. It is not illegal at all to keep them in an "indoor body of water such as an indoor pond or aquarium" however to put them in an outside pond or to dump them in a river is highly illegal.

Where did you get your information as it does not sound correct to me. If however it is correct I would be interested to see the list. And I would also be interested to know why they are imported into the UK on a regular basis.

Just so we are deffinately talking about the same fish here is a pic:

On a side note I have seen them at another local fish shop.

Ben

EDIT: And weather loaches are on that list?! wtf Every fish shop I know sells these! lol.

 

[SirMinion]

We sell rosy minnows at work.  Infact we have 3 or 4 tanks of them.  It is not illegal at all to keep them in an "indoor body of water such as an indoor pond or aquarium" however to put them in an outside pond or to dump them in a river is highly illegal.

Where did you get your information as it does not sound correct to me.

It's not illegal to keep them, it's illegal to keep them without a licence and to sell them to someone who does not have a licence.

The full information is here (that's a government website)

Incidentely, the commonly sold weather (dojo) loach is Misgurnus anguillicaudatus whereas the listed fish is Misgurnus fossilis

 

[bunjiweb]

Interesting.......

As for the weather loaches, the ones we have at the moment are wild caught..

Ben

 

[glolite]

I think that it is a personal thing. OK it is illegal to feed live fish in the UK but if you have baby guppies and feed them to a bigger fish who's to know. However, does it make you feel good to see baby fish eaten by bigger fish knowing that you have put them in there to die??? Personally I hate the thought.