Research First

Squimps

Fish Fanatic
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I've read a couple of threads lately that go something like this:

" I added water to my tank a few days ago and my LFS said it ws OK to add this type of fish right away. I put the fish in and it looks sick. How big does this fish get? Is my tank big enough for it? What do I need to feed it? What kind of water(PH, etc.) does it like?"

-or-

" I've had my tank running for several months now but my fish keep dying. I'm tired of loosing my expensive, pretty fish. What is cycling anyway?"



I'll probably end up sounding like a jerk but I'm just having a small problem understanding why people aren't doing just a little research BEFORE plunking fish into their tanks. If you are posting a message here then it is obvious that you have access to a tremendous amount of information and should not be relying on any one person's opinion(including mine). This holds especially true for someone like your local fish guy who may be trying to sell you something. If you need to know the basic info about a particular fish, just go to your search engine(Yahoo, Google, etc.) and search away. There are more sources here than you could ever hope to read in one sitting. You'll be about to find profles that contain maximun adult size, water parameters, eating habits, social behavior and many more facts. Also, the basics of cycling and creating a healthy environment for your fish are covered in the first chapter of most aquarium books. It's a substantial investment to buy all of the equipment to set up a tank - make the extra effort and pay an extra 10-20$ for a starters guide to fishkeeping.
From time to time I see some people want to blame the person at their pet store who sold them an inappropriate species or convinced them to take home a single, expensive fish that really belonged in a school of 6 or more. I do believe that it is unethical for someone to knowingly sell you something that is inappropriate but I place the majority of the burden on the individual purchasing the fish to find out the correct information for themselves. Before the days of the internet, researching meant actually getting off the couch and trecking down to the library but if you're sitting here reading this, any information you need is at your fingertips. As an example, I recently saw a small Green Chromide(type of cichlid) in one of my dealer's tanks the other day and told him I was looking for a fish that would remain under 5 or 6 inches. He assured me that this was the fish for me and talked about how nice the fish looked once mature. I could have bought the fish on the spot but I decided to go home and research first. I find out that this species gets to be almost 16" when full grown. Would I have had a right to be mad at the dealer? Maybe. Who's fault would it have ultimately been had I purchased the fish? Mine.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm having a rant here and I don't want anyone to feel like there are any "wrong" questions to be asked. I've learned more from this board and others like it than I could have hoped to on my own. I do feel, however, that there are some fish that are suffering needlessly because they are in an unhealthy environment due to lack of knowledge on the owner's part. I'm pretty new to this board and there are people here who's opinions hold much more sway than mine. I'm just trying to advocate a little personal responsibility. Take your time, do the research and enjoy watching it all come together knowing that you've done your homework.
 
I sometimes feel as you do but most of the time it is the dealers fault because they often misinform people and sound like they know what they're talking about. They get people's trust and they sound really plausible - and with healthy fish swimming about behind them its easy to assume they know what they're talking about.
 
Alien Anna said:
I sometimes feel as you do but most of the time it is the dealers fault because they often misinform people and sound like they know what they're talking about. They get people's trust and they sound really plausible - and with healthy fish swimming about behind them its easy to assume they know what they're talking about.
I totally agree and it's unfortunate that so many people new to the hobby do not realize that the "expert" at their pet shop is either uninformed or is trying to sell them something just to hear the ring of the cash register. I also feel, however, that many people have not come to terms with fish as "pets" yet and still view them as swimming ornaments. This is not directed at anyone here but I think that it takes many people a while to realize you can develope a real relationship with the members of your aquarium.

By the way Anna, I'm sorry if I came across wrongly in the discussion about "live foods" the other day. I certainly do respect your views on the matter.

-Chip
 
Chip - I have a solution. Feed live stupid LFS clerks to fish - that way, everyone will be happy. ;)
 
LOL :lol:!! I totally agree with you guys! Most LFS workers are horrible!! But not mine. He lets me get my own things, like fish and rock and salt, everything, its probably cuz I go they're like everyother day to get more stuff!!! LOL! And he's also very smart about fish. Trust me I had to ask him like 100 'quetions' before I could trust him, just to see if he would answer right. LOL, anyways, other then that store, the others are terrible!
Ron
 
Squimps said:
I'm just trying to advocate a little personal responsibility. Take your time, do the research and enjoy watching it all come together knowing that you've done your homework.
I for one take big time offense to your post!!! I am one of those newbies who listened to the LFS advice when setting up my tank. I knew nothing about cycling. Why on earth would I think to come to the internet or the library or whatever to research what in my opinion the LFS should know! I went in there trusting that they should/would know what I needed to know. That's what they do right??!! I asked plenty of questions before getting my fish. Some LFS don't know about or think fishless cycling is important, so to them cycling with fish is normal & correct. I stumbled upon this board while searching the web trying to figure out what was happening in my tank. Thank God I found it. There are some wonderful people here with great advice that probably saved all my fish. I find the hobby to be even more fun & challenging now that I know what I'm doing (for the most part anyway!)


Your advice to take time & do research isn't helping any newbie... The people who are new that come across this board have most likely already set up their tanks and are already in trouble when they come here looking for help. You want to do your "good deed" for the day?? Instead of making people feel bad here why don't you take your soap box to some of these LFS and give your speech there to people who haven't yet gotten themselves in trouble. Maybe there you can be of some help.

I don't disagree with you that it's horrible what some fish end up going through because people are misinformed but put the blame where it belongs... the LFS! I for one feel completely insulted by your post. I applaud the people of this board who are here helping others get out of sticky situations and making the hobby enjoyable to those who thought there was no hope! You are not one of them. :no:
 
I understand why some people may be offended by what I said and I'm surprised that it actually took a couple of responses for people to disagree with me. In my response to Anna, I did concede the fact that many newbies do not realize that the LFS can often give wrong or inappropriate advice.

The thing that prompted me to write this particular thread comes from a discussion on another board that deals primarily with cichlids. One particular member bought a species of fish that he had been asking about on the forum for a few days. Everyone advised him against getting the fish based on the population that he already had in the tank. His LFS convinced him that everything would be fine if he just "rearranged the decorations" in his tank. Well, 2 days and 4 dead fish later($125 worth :crazy: ), he was ranting about how irresponsible his dealer was. I was dumbfounded when some of the members of the other forum who originally advised him against getting the fish, jumped on the bandwagon and started critisizing the person at the pet store. These are the people I am having issues with and not those who are caught unawares. I don't know about you guys in th U.K. but I'm getting frustrated with American society always looking away from the mirror to find someone to blame for their mistakes.

I meant the post as a piece of advice but apparently my high level of frustation showed through. I was unsuccessful at sorting my emotions and for that I apologize. I hope everyone will take my post as intended and not as a criticism.
 
I agree with Squimps but like JM said unfortunatly by the time 99% of people get this far its because they are in trouble and are looking for help.
I have found that most people who work in fish shops have very limited experience in keeping fish and just play the guessing game when it comes to a fish they have not kept or researched, a classic example is when i went to buy a black shark (Labeo chrysophekadion). Now call me sadistic but whenever i go to a new fish shop i pretend to know nothing about fish just so i can have a good laugh when the assistant spouts a load of rubbish, i only let on that i know a reasonable ammount if they tell the truth and give good info. But anyway i told the assistant that i would like to buy a black shark and pointed out the one i wanted, just as he netted it i asked "how big will it get and will it be ok in a 3ft community tank?" the answer should have been, " they can only be kept with large fish capable of looking after themselves and need a 6ft tank as they can grow to 24". Instead he said "yeah that will be fine, they get about as big as the redtail sharks but arent as aggressive!!!!!". Now the guy had probably never kept black sharks but knew about the more commonly kept red tail and rainbow sharks so put two and two together and made 5, if i had of been telling the truth it would have been a disaster.
The other problem is money, the shop is there to take your cash and when you go in waving it theyre not going to turn you away, to the majority of lfs employees and owners fish are just another product to sell. You wouldnt trust the word of a secondhand carsalesman 100% and would get a second opinion before parting with a large ammount of cash so why do you trust the people in the lfs?
 
I just want to say that I now consider much of my newbie fish-keeping behaviour to have been that of an idiot - I put a pair of CAEs into my community tank with a red-tailed shark and a betta, I traded the CAEs in but replaced them with four pearl gouramis, who promptly tried to kill each other, I had no idea about cycling and killed off a load of fish when I tried to add them to a new tank...

Even a couple of months ago I was conned into buying exclusively male guppies. Now that wasn't such a horrible mistake, since I've now got them coexisting happily but it would have been nice to know that they weren't actually schooling fish. I had researched them but since I never came across anything (apart from on this forum saying) "Guppies: not actually schooling fish", I was unaware. See, a lot of the information you need isn't in a nice, convenient, easy-to-understand form.

One thing I'd like to do, maybe as a team effort, on this forum is to write more articles for newbies on fish-keeping. How about a beginners guide to the more popular fish? Including details like "Not actually schooling fish", and important facts like "Guppies: poor tank mates for male bettas" and stuff like that. Also, a list of questions you need to ask before buying a new species of fish.
 
LOL, anna! Yes, that would be a great idea about teh article! I know I would have loved that when I first started 'fishing'. You could put things like tank size, fish compatability, parameters, set ups, ext. It would be exelent!
Ron
 
When I first tried keeping fish when I was a kid (about 13) I trusted what the LFS employees told me. Some of them are good and truly want to help people, like one PetsMart employee who kindly reminded me that corys can't be kept singly (a big duh on my part must not have been thinking that day). Most pet store employees remind me of car salesmen, just trying to seal the deal and make their money. When the entire store acts like that you notice it quickly because they really don't care about their pets just the money they make selling stuff. My local mall has a very crappy pet store like that and it has degenerated so terribly that people that don't know anything about fish won't even buy there. ("Mommy why are all the fish lying sideways on the bottom?")

The employees can't take all the blame though. While liars they aren't the ones that are buying the fish. I think every one of us has fallen for the impulse buy and gotten that fish we "just had to have" and didn't research it and then got home and found out that the fish, while really cute, chases all the other fish around and a week later we have a tank full of dead fish including the new one.

We can blame "newbies" for not researching and not knowing enough, which is all the more likely to make them not want to listen to us (who wants to pay attention to people that don't like them?). We have all made really stupid mistakes. The smart ones among us realize that it was a mistake and try to learn from it. There have been countless posts saying "I made a stupid mistake" on this board in the short time since I have joined. The few who refuse to admit they are wrong when all their fish die are the ones that are to blame for giving newbies a bad name.

Sorry for the super long post. :-(
 
Squimps said:
CMFC47 said:
Squimps said:
I'll probably end up sounding like a jerk but
Wow... that was not nice. :sad:
I was talking about myself...
Yea, I know... like I said, that was not nice. I'm sure a pro like yourself gets aggrevated at us newbies for our ignorance but your words do not make any new people looking for help feel very welcome... :/
 
guppymonkey said:
We can blame "newbies" for not researching and not knowing enough, which is all the more likely to make them not want to listen to us (who wants to pay attention to people that don't like them?). We have all made really stupid mistakes. The smart ones among us realize that it was a mistake and try to learn from it. There have been countless posts saying "I made a stupid mistake" on this board in the short time since I have joined. The few who refuse to admit they are wrong when all their fish die are the ones that are to blame for giving newbies a bad name.
Exactly my point... by criticizing the newbies who didn't know better to research, you are in fact alienating them from this very board which is titled "Beginner Questions". If you want to talk about how ignorant all the newbies are for not doing their homework, why not do it on another board? By doing it here you are merely pissing off those who came here to ADMIT their wrong doing & try to get whatever advice they can to make it right! I haven't been here long but on this board anyway, beginner questions, I've not seen anyone come here & not admit they made a mistake when all their fish have died or are in trouble. I mean you act like we are heartless fish killers! If we didn't care we wouldn't have come here looking for your all mighty help! I'm sorry to come across so harsh but this post and the first one really have made me mad! Whatever your intentions were you came across very condescending and this board is not the place for it!

I do appreciate the first poster coming back & apologizing for coming across so harsh. I know what you both are trying to say & it does suck that it happens so often but again, wrong board to be venting on.
 

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