Random black ram deaths

[CRS]

I bought two black rams about 3 weeks ago, both of which have recently died, i'm regularly checking the water using the API master kit, the PH, nitrites, nitrates and ammonia are all fine, all other fish seem ok, from what i understand these fish are quite rare, these cost £30 each, has anyone else had issues with these fish before?

They are nice fish, but unless i try and figure out what happened i won't be buying anymore, i am still relatively new to the hobby but i have no idea why both of these would die when everything seems fine

Thanks for any help

Craig

 

[Sgooosh]

I bought two black rams about 3 weeks ago, both of which have recently died, i'm regularly checking the water using the API master kit, the PH, nitrites, nitrates and ammonia are all fine, all other fish seem ok, from what i understand these fish are quite rare, these cost £30 each, has anyone else had issues with these fish before?

They are nice fish, but unless i try and figure out what happened i won't be buying anymore, i am still relatively new to the hobby but i have no idea why both of these would die when everything seems fine

Thanks for any help

Craig

photos?
excact params?
thanks

 

[CRS]

photos?
excact params?
thanks

PH - 7
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0
Ammonia 0

I didn't take any photos, they died a few days apart

 

[Slaphppy7]

Never kept them, but from what I have read, they require pristine water conditions, and exacting params

 

[Essjay]

And soft water with a temp higher than most tropical fish.

 

[CRS]

And soft water with a temp higher than most tropical fish.

I have both my heaters set at 26C,
The water in my area is soft i have about 40-50 shrimp in the tank and they all seem ok.

 

[FishHobby99]

I am sorry for your loss. Sounds like you did all the right things. If they’re all this delicate, definitely not the fish for me.

 

[kribensis12]

Hello! Welcome to the hobby! I'm going to do my best to explain here:

1. Rams are known for "just dying".
2. Poor genetic makeup does weaken these fish.

1. Ram Cichlids are known for "just dying" and while it appears this way, it is much more complex than that. To put it into perspective - how many other animals can you think of that "just die" without any external stimuli? I personally can't think of any.

What is true, is that Ram Cichlids are very sensitive to incompatible water quality. Rams require warm temperatures (82-86 F), soft acidic water (low kH and gH, pH 7.0 or below), 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and as close to 0 as you can get with nitrates + frequent water changes. Some Black Ram (or Dark Knight) Ram breeders recommend doing 50% weekly or more. I have found great success doing 20-30% once a week.

If you can provide all of these pieces, you should have no issues.

If you do, it brings me to point #2 - genetics.

2. Genetics.

Dark Knight rams were developed in 2012 by a breeder in South Africa. Since then, a truly black strain (not a regular German with some dark characteristics) can be hard to find and if you do, it is probably a relative of only a few known breeding lines. To get the black color the original German Blue Ram was cultivated into the Gold Ram Cichlid and from them the Black Ram was developed. The sheer amount of inbreeding to get those beautiful colors has made this fish more likely to get sick etc. if their required parameters are not met.

Tried to make that short and sweet.

Can you provide me with:
Tank size
stocking?


EDITED: I saw that you had posted more information. 26C of 78F is too cool for rams. Unlikely that this alone killed them, but you'd need it to be 29C.

 

[Kolykaf]

Hello! Welcome to the hobby! I'm going to do my best to explain here:

1. Rams are known for "just dying".
2. Poor genetic makeup does weaken these fish.

1. Ram Cichlids are known for "just dying" and while it appears this way, it is much more complex than that. To put it into perspective - how many other animals can you think of that "just die" without any external stimuli? I personally can't think of any.

What is true, is that Ram Cichlids are very sensitive to incompatible water quality. Rams require warm temperatures (82-86 F), soft acidic water (low kH and gH, pH 7.0 or below), 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and as close to 0 as you can get with nitrates + frequent water changes. Some Black Ram (or Dark Knight) Ram breeders recommend doing 50% weekly or more. I have found great success doing 20-30% once a week.

If you can provide all of these pieces, you should have no issues.

If you do, it brings me to point #2 - genetics.

2. Genetics.

Dark Knight rams were developed in 2012 by a breeder in South Africa. Since then, a truly black strain (not a regular German with some dark characteristics) can be hard to find and if you do, it is probably a relative of only a few known breeding lines. To get the black color the original German Blue Ram was cultivated into the Gold Ram Cichlid and from them the Black Ram was developed. The sheer amount of inbreeding to get those beautiful colors has made this fish more likely to get sick etc. if their required parameters are not met.

Tried to make that short and sweet.

Can you provide me with:
Tank size
stocking?


EDITED: I saw that you had posted more information. 26C of 78F is too cool for rams. Unlikely that this alone killed them, but you'd need it to be 29C.

I’ve kept and successfully bred blue rams. All of this is spot on. I kept them in remineralized R/O -so soft water at temps around 82-84F. I also did 50% weekly water changes. Even maintaining pristine water isn’t always enough to keep them alive with some of the weak genetic strains for sale at many fish stores. I’d always get mine from breeders.

 

[Sgooosh]

or if this is a new tank, maybe the cycle is too young to keep rams?

 

[Colin_T]

what symptoms did they have?

26C is fine for rams

 

[kribensis12]

@Kolykaf

Can you explain your point?

In both posts, they acknowledge and genetics are a significant factor.

Most rams from the store are hyped up on hormones and bred overseas and they do not handle it well.

All of this is irrelevant though as I have personally not seen black rams provided commercially - all local breeders in my experience.

 

[Kolykaf]

@Kolykaf

Can you explain your point?

In both posts, they acknowledge and genetics are a significant factor.

Most rams from the store are hyped up on hormones and bred overseas and they do not handle it well.

All of this is irrelevant though as I have personally not seen black rams provided commercially - all local breeders in my experience.

My point is that I agree with the assessment in your post. Specifically that they require soft, acidic water and high temps. And, even when this is provided they have a tendency to die before long because of genetics/hormones. Black rams aren’t so uncommon at fish stores in my area though. I see them regularly at the stores I frequent. The stores may be getting them from local breeders- I’ve never asked because they don’t appeal to me. I find the standard blue ram much more beautiful.

 

[kribensis12]

My point is that I agree with the assessment in your post. Specifically that they require soft, acidic water and high temps. And, even when this is provided they have a tendency to die before long because of genetics/hormones. Black rams aren’t so uncommon at fish stores in my area though. I see them regularly at the stores I frequent. The stores may be getting them from local breeders- I’ve never asked because they don’t appeal to me. I find the standard blue ram much more beautiful.

I understand.

I would like to apologize - I interpreted you double-quoting me without any additional information as something negative in nature.

Please accept my apologies.

Where are you located? I’m wondering if someone has finally started producing en mass.

 

[Lajos_Detari]

Even though some Rams may be weaker in genetics, the breeders have successfully kept many of them until adults size.
So, in my opinion, if you keep them right, they can thrive in your tank without any problem.

Firstly, may I know how big is your tank?
You should have at least a 10 gallons tank(preferably bigger) for the water to be more stable.
And don't overfeed them if your tank filter isn't stable yet especially when they are new.

Secondly, did you observe any symptoms of fish scratching and breathing fast?
From my experience with Rams, many of them are infected with gill & skin flukes.

Some are also infected with internal worms due to feeding with live worms that are infected.
Did they have sunken bellies or white stringy poo?

I had kept many Rams in the past and the only reason that they died are due to diseases.

Lastly, did they fight?