Questions About My Results.

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Akasha72 said:
it is worth checking so you know what your dealing with
smile.png

 
I always advise just checking all the stats on the tap water if that is what we are using to water change our tanks. It helps to know what the pH is and the gH and kH and whether there's any Ammonia in there or Nitrates. In my case I need to know that there's a Phosphate (PO4) level straight from my tap that is harmful to fish and this is why I have to run a PO4 remover constantly
 
Well, i dont have ammonia or nitrites in my well.  I am, however, very glad you suggested that i test the tap.  I also dipped from the well and re-tested.  My nitrates are pushing 40ppm.  Im calling the water company to verify...but it looks like i will be installing an RO system.  the EPA says anything over 10ppm is unsafe for humans.  GREAT!!!!!  Wife cant complain about my new hobby now...we may never had known until we were sick.
 
woah ... 40ppm!! no wonder the tank is so high! If you've got the option to install RO then go for it! I wish I had that option
 
Vethian- the EPA measures nitrates using the nitrogen scale, our hobby kits measure using the total ion scale. This is similar to measuring distance in miles or kilometers of temperature in C or F.
 
And just like it is possible to convert miles to kilometers or C to F (or the reverse), one can also convert the two scales for testing the nitrogen complex. For a thorough explanation and the conversion chart, go here http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/NitrogenIonConversion.php
 
For nitrate, 10 mg/l-N (the govt uses mg/L which is about the same as ppm) will read 4.43 ppm on a hobby test kit.
 
The nitrate kit is one of the least accurate of the kits we use. But DrsFosterandSmith.com has a decent nitrate tester on clearance sale this week for $209 + another $45 for the reagent.
*

Employ laboratory-grade electronic tester for the most accurate nitrate level readings


*

Accurately test nitrate levels to ensure aquarium water quality



*

Tabletop photometer displays nitrate results on large LCD screen

Easy-to-use electronic nitrate tester for professional results. Hanna Nitrate Photometer lets you measure aquarium nitrate levels with professional results. Portable microprocessor meter boasts advanced optical system featuring a special Tungsten lamp and a narrow band interference filter. In other words, you enjoy accurate and reliable readings necessary to maintain ideal aquarium water quality.
from http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578%2020024%2023792&pcatid=23792
 
TwoTankAmin said:
Vethian- the EPA measures nitrates using the nitrogen scale, our hobby kits measure using the total ion scale. This is similar to measuring distance in miles or kilometers of temperature in C or F.
 
And just like it is possible to convert miles to kilometers or C to F (or the reverse), one can also convert the two scales for testing the nitrogen complex. For a thorough explanation and the conversion chart, go here http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/NitrogenIonConversion.php
 
For nitrate, 10 mg/l-N (the govt uses mg/L which is about the same as ppm) will read 4.43 ppm on a hobby test kit.
 
The nitrate kit is one of the least accurate of the kits we use. But DrsFosterandSmith.com has a decent nitrate tester on clearance sale this week for $209 + another $45 for the reagent.
* Employ laboratory-grade electronic tester for the most accurate nitrate level readings
* Accurately test nitrate levels to ensure aquarium water quality
* Tabletop photometer displays nitrate results on large LCD screen
Easy-to-use electronic nitrate tester for professional results. Hanna Nitrate Photometer lets you measure aquarium nitrate levels with professional results. Portable microprocessor meter boasts advanced optical system featuring a special Tungsten lamp and a narrow band interference filter. In other words, you enjoy accurate and reliable readings necessary to maintain ideal aquarium water quality.
from http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578%2020024%2023792&pcatid=23792
 
And this is why Im hiring someone to verify.  :)  
 
Opps I stated the above incorrectly- sorry. 10 mg/L NO3-N = 44.3 ppm not 4.43. I misplaced the decimal point.
 
NO3 = NO3-N x 4.42664, so 10 x 4.436 + 44.3.
 
Again, apologies.
 
no problems.  the local well company is coming out Monday to test the water for me.  then we will know!  :)
 
Thats going to be interesting one way or the other :)
 
Don't think i have ever seen a thread where folks are getting experts in to check their water ;)
 
Ch4rlie said:
Thats going to be interesting one way or the other
smile.png

 
Don't think i have ever seen a thread where folks are getting experts in to check their water
wink.png
 
Well, if nitrates are that high in my family's drinking water I want to know.  ;)  In my area, its customary to not charge for testing unless you are selling or refinancing.  Then it also has to go to an EPA lab.  That cost money.
 
Well 44.3 ppm of nitrate measuring total ions is really not all that much. If you read the EPA link I included you will see that this is the level needed to be protective of infants.
 
How harmful nitrates may be to fish is a subject of much debate. Some fish seem able to handle extrememly high levels, in the 100s of ppms (on the nitrogen scale) while the most sensitive of aquatic critters Salmonids and water "bugs" seem to have issues at 10 ppms or more (most of these are not things ever found in tanks).
 
Here is a perfect example in an Abstract from a 2002 paper using rice fish "Aquatic animal research in space station and its issues — focus on support technology on nitrate toxicity —"
 


Abstract
We studied the effects of accumulated nitrate in water on the spawning, hatching and development of medaka using a simple nitrifying filter and a combined filter having both nitrifying and denitrifying capabilities. A nitrate concentration of 100mgNO3−-N/L was clearly of lethal toxicity to fish when they were exposed to nitrate in both adult and the growing phases. A nitrate concentration of 75mgNO3−-N/L reduced the fertilization rate, delayed the hatching time and reduced the hatching rate of the eggs laid by adults and decreased the growth rate of juveniles. In addition, nitrate accumulations as low as 50mgNO3−-N/L remarkably retarded spawning and lowered the number of eggs laid by fish exposed in the juvenile phase. The effects on the reproduction system may be initiated by a low concentration, approximately 30mgNO3−-N/L.
from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027311770200399X
 
Note, the lowest nitrate value mentioned is "30mgNO3−-N/L" and on our test kits this would be about 132 ppm. That is 3 times the maximum allowable level in USA municipal water.
 
There is a ton of definite research on the toxicity of Ammonia to fish. There is also a lot of data on nitrite as well. However, with nitrate there is much less. The one thing we do know is that a good water change routine should hold nitrate to reasonable levels in many tanks. Those where this is not the case have to look to additional means for lowering it. The problem is knowing when this might be the case due to the inaccuracies of hobby nitrate kits.
 
All of this is complicated by where the potential source of nitrate in one's tap might be. Bear in mind that municipal water supplies are only regulated as long as it is in the public part of the supply system. This system stops at the interface of public and private property. So, any issues arising from things related to the private pipes etc. are unrelated to the water that comes from the public part of the system.
 
The reason this matter has to do with nitrifying bacteria which lives and thrives in our private pipes. Here are some studies re this:
http://www.awwa.org/publications/journal-awwa/abstract/articleid/22199.aspx
http://www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacg/fulltext/chloramine.pdf
 
Basically, even if the municipal water supply has low nitrate, your private plumbing may be increasing them. I am curious from where the water you are having tested will come. Will they take it from before it enters your pipes, from your tap or from both? Please give us a report about what exactly they do and what the results are. For the sake of interest, you might want to ask them for a small amount of water from each place they take it so that you can test it using your nitrate kit. Then you can compare those results to the ones which are reported by the professionals.
 
I dipped water from my well as well as from a sink in my house.  Both showed red on my nitrate test.  I live in a rural area with farming.  So, it is a good thing to test every so often as run off from the farms may spike the nitrates in the well.  I plan on having him test both my well and sink.  My plumbing, however, was completely replaced and updated within the last 5 years.  I will keep you updates.
 
TwoTankAmin said:
Well 44.3 ppm of nitrate measuring total ions is really not all that much. If you read the EPA link I included you will see that this is the level needed to be protective of infants.
 
How harmful nitrates may be to fish is a subject of much debate. Some fish seem able to handle extrememly high levels, in the 100s of ppms (on the nitrogen scale) while the most sensitive of aquatic critters Salmonids and water "bugs" seem to have issues at 10 ppms or more (most of these are not things ever found in tanks).
 
Here is a perfect example in an Abstract from a 2002 paper using rice fish "Aquatic animal research in space station and its issues — focus on support technology on nitrate toxicity —"
 
Abstract
We studied the effects of accumulated nitrate in water on the spawning, hatching and development of medaka using a simple nitrifying filter and a combined filter having both nitrifying and denitrifying capabilities. A nitrate concentration of 100mgNO3−-N/L was clearly of lethal toxicity to fish when they were exposed to nitrate in both adult and the growing phases. A nitrate concentration of 75mgNO3−-N/L reduced the fertilization rate, delayed the hatching time and reduced the hatching rate of the eggs laid by adults and decreased the growth rate of juveniles. In addition, nitrate accumulations as low as 50mgNO3−-N/L remarkably retarded spawning and lowered the number of eggs laid by fish exposed in the juvenile phase. The effects on the reproduction system may be initiated by a low concentration, approximately 30mgNO3−-N/L.
from http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S027311770200399X
 
Note, the lowest nitrate value mentioned is "30mgNO3−-N/L" and on our test kits this would be about 132 ppm. That is 3 times the maximum allowable level in USA municipal water.
 
There is a ton of definite research on the toxicity of Ammonia to fish. There is also a lot of data on nitrite as well. However, with nitrate there is much less. The one thing we do know is that a good water change routine should hold nitrate to reasonable levels in many tanks. Those where this is not the case have to look to additional means for lowering it. The problem is knowing when this might be the case due to the inaccuracies of hobby nitrate kits.
 
All of this is complicated by where the potential source of nitrate in one's tap might be. Bear in mind that municipal water supplies are only regulated as long as it is in the public part of the supply system. This system stops at the interface of public and private property. So, any issues arising from things related to the private pipes etc. are unrelated to the water that comes from the public part of the system.
 
The reason this matter has to do with nitrifying bacteria which lives and thrives in our private pipes. Here are some studies re this:
http://www.awwa.org/publications/journal-awwa/abstract/articleid/22199.aspx
http://www.bvsde.paho.org/bvsacg/fulltext/chloramine.pdf
 
Basically, even if the municipal water supply has low nitrate, your private plumbing may be increasing them. I am curious from where the water you are having tested will come. Will they take it from before it enters your pipes, from your tap or from both? Please give us a report about what exactly they do and what the results are. For the sake of interest, you might want to ask them for a small amount of water from each place they take it so that you can test it using your nitrate kit. Then you can compare those results to the ones which are reported by the professionals.
 
hope it all turns out okay Vethian :)
 
You almost don't need the watwer company in light of the above information about living where farming is prevalent. I would bet dollars to donuts that is the cause of your issues. The thing about this is you will have another issue here. Farmer do not fertilize year round, rather they tend to do it during growing season with much of it coming at specific intervals during the year. What this means is you are likely to have excess all the time but not at the same levels.
 
I am thinking you are going to have to decide on a method for dealing with all this. You have a number of options and they can even be combined. if possible ask the people who are doing your testing what they have found in other wells in your area. What you want to know is when they see the highest levels of nitrate vs when they see the lowest and about what those levels are. This will  help to understand any seasonal effects. it will also let you formulate a plant for dealing with things.
 
You can use a mix of tap and ro water, denitrifying "chemicals" or resins, denitrifying bacteria and even changing the bio-media to types which encourage denitrification. And then there are a few ways to incorporate live plants including a separate veggie filter.
 
One other thing here. Nitrate in the water does not show up on either GH or KH test kits. However, it does contribute to conductivity/TDS. You may find that one of the better tools you can have for testing your water is a TDS tester. These can be had with a digital thermometer included for about  $20 in the USA (its cheaper in the UK). I have used this one for a number of years: http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/tds3.html The only drawback is the temp is in C. I have charts up on the fish space wall with C to F numbers at .5 C intervals.
0001.jpg

Here is one on Ebay for under $20 delivered http://www.ebay.com/itm/HM-Digital-TDS-3-Handheld-Meter-With-Carrying-Case-NEW-/151678236460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2350ba372c
 
As an eBay Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
TwoTankAmin said:
You almost don't need the watwer company in light of the above information about living where farming is prevalent. I would bet dollars to donuts that is the cause of your issues. The thing about this is you will have another issue here. Farmer do not fertilize year round, rather they tend to do it during growing season with much of it coming at specific intervals during the year. What this means is you are likely to have excess all the time but not at the same levels.
 
I am thinking you are going to have to decide on a method for dealing with all this. You have a number of options and they can even be combined. if possible ask the people who are doing your testing what they have found in other wells in your area. What you want to know is when they see the highest levels of nitrate vs when they see the lowest and about what those levels are. This will  help to understand any seasonal effects. it will also let you formulate a plant for dealing with things.
 
You can use a mix of tap and ro water, denitrifying "chemicals" or resins, denitrifying bacteria and even changing the bio-media to types which encourage denitrification. And then there are a few ways to incorporate live plants including a separate veggie filter.
 
One other thing here. Nitrate in the water does not show up on either GH or KH test kits. However, it does contribute to conductivity/TDS. You may find that one of the better tools you can have for testing your water is a TDS tester. These can be had with a digital thermometer included for about  $20 in the USA (its cheaper in the UK). I have used this one for a number of years: http://www.tdsmeter.com/products/tds3.html The only drawback is the temp is in C. I have charts up on the fish space wall with C to F numbers at .5 C intervals.
0001.jpg

Here is one on Ebay for under $20 delivered http://www.ebay.com/itm/HM-Digital-TDS-3-Handheld-Meter-With-Carrying-Case-NEW-/151678236460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2350ba372c
 
So cheap...I may invest.  Thanks!  On the plus side...my tank reads zero ammonia and nitrites are dropping!  crossing my fingers!
 
As an eBay Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
ok, here is the info.  My PH is 5.4!  which is amazing that my tank is 7.6.  would sand do that?  My Nitrate level is 11ppm which is above EPA safety standards.  Now I have to install a RO filter on my drinking water.
 
here in the U.K we say "better safe than sorry". Drinking water needs to be safe - especially when there's little one's in the house. 
 
As for your pH - certain things in our aquariums can alter pH. Sometimes the substrate is to blame, sometimes it's due to organics, sometimes it's due to gH and kH ... there's too many things that can alter water chemistry and this is something I'm still learning about. I'm sure someone with more knowledge about these things will be able to advise you better :)
 

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