Poised To Set-up And Heavily Plant - A Few Questions Please!

[cdb2]

Hardware is set-up and plants soon to be ordered, set-up as follows:

Tank - 48" x 18" (D) x 22" (H) - approx 75 (UK) gallons capacity
Filter - Eheim 2126 external
Substrate - General 3mm gravel (40/50kg) giving an average 4" depth + 5L Tropica Plant Substrate
Lighting - 4 x High Output T5 (54w) lamps - 216w total using 'Daylight' tubes with reflectors
CO2 - pressurised system connected to an Aqua Medic Reactor 500. Water supply to the Reactor fed by teeing off from the filter return and using in-line valves to regulate the flow

1) Intend to add the water\Aquasafe, start filter and heater, start CO2 and aim for 30ppm but leave lights off until planted. Planting will occur soon after filling as soon as they arrrive! Will plant heavily 75% of substrate with fast growers (Hornwort, Hygro, Elodea, Creeping Jenny etc as recommended in PFK by George and also some floating Frogbit) and then when planted put on lights and add ferts. I'd then add perhaps more adventurous or specimen or red plants after a couple of months. This order presumably ok?

2) Is it safe to add some 'cheaper' Amazon Swords like E. Bleheri and Crypts at this stage?

3) There are various ways to cycle (fish\fishless) but having read articles as I'm planting heavily I won't need to add ammonia for a fishless cycle and could add perhaps a few hardy fish after a week or two? At this stage would you go straight for the Ottos and Shrimp or something more hardy first and then the Ottos and Shrimp? I may be able to seed the filter with mulm from elsewhere too.

4) With stem plants in the past I have wrapped groups of the stems in foam and wrapped that in planting weights. Do you normally wrap in groups of 3 or 5 and what spacing between plantings?

5) Ferts will be Tropica, any thoughts on whether to use the standard or the 'plus'?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Aeropars]

1) I really wouldnt add ferts straight off, especially when ordering tropica plants ot good brand plants. They we loaded with nutiriants during the growing period and have stores of these to cope with stress or lack of nutrients. I think its about 4 weeks r planting you chouls start freting. CO2 should be 30ppm from the start though.

2)Its safe to add whatever you want as long as you have a mass of fast growers.

3)I would go for ottos only at this stage. All dependant on the type of shrimps though

4)dont use any type of foam or weights. This restrict growth and root development so just stick stems in the substrate. They will soon root so no need for and weights. Planting in groups all depends on the plant.

5)I'm no expert on tropica ferts but i beleive you would need both. One is a mixture of Nitrogen Phosphate and Nitrate and the other is trace elements. If your not up to speed on this read up on the nutrients needed for aquatic plant growth, NPK and macro.

 

[Underwurlde]

Just my thoughts....

70UK == 90US Gal -> @216W gives 2.5W / Gal lighting is OK.

Good choice of filter.

Substrate: Mulm first, sprinkling of peat on that with ADA AquaSoil on top is what I'D do. But that's just my choice. Sprinkling of sand / gravel if need be where I know there'd be no plants. Somewhere to park the car!

CO2 - don't know that system, but the important thing is that you have CO2 with that lighting. 30ppm is what everyone targets.

If you have Mulm, add it to your filter and fishless cycle if I were you.

Initial planting looks fine to me.

as I'm planting heavily I won't need to add ammonia for a fishless cycle

Not sure about that!

Shrimp are not hardy IMHO (dunno about ottos).

With stem plants in the past I have wrapped groups of the stems in foam and wrapped that in planting weights. Do you normally wrap in groups of 3 or 5 and what spacing between plantings?

Take them out of that crappy wrapping as it will stifle the roots as the plant grows and they may rot. Spacing depends on plant type, but there is a general rule >somewhere< that I can't remember off the top of my brain. Separate out & individually plant each plantlet.

I'd recommend Tropica Master Grow (I think the plus version has added CO2 supliments so you won't need it). Alternatively to that, SeaChem Flourish or Tropica AquaCare Nutrition.

Hope that's all accurate & of some help,

Andy

 

[Dave Spencer]

Due to the amount of plants from the start in my tank I never saw a rise in Ammonia or nitrite.

I added some Otos and Amanos after the first week (probably too soon), but have had absolutely no problems with them. I wanted my little work force in as soon as possible.

When planting stems use tweezers. I started off doing them by hand, but found that as I planted a small bunch I was pulling up the previous bunch as I took my hand out of the tank.

 

[RadaR]

as I'm planting heavily I won't need to add ammonia for a fishless cycle

Not sure about that!

Shrimp are not hardy IMHO (dunno about ottos).

Agreed. Ammonia is still going to be needed to produce and feed the bacteria in the filter and substrate.

 

[Underwurlde]

Opps, my bad....

Tropica Master Grow+ which is now called AquaCare Plant Nutrition+ Liquid I belive is (and I quote from their web-site)
"Contains all essential nutrients needed and also includes Nitrogen N & Phosphorus P."

So if you are NPK dosing already, no need for it.

Andy

 

[cdb2]

as I'm planting heavily I won't need to add ammonia for a fishless cycle

Not sure about that!

Shrimp are not hardy IMHO (dunno about ottos).

Agreed. Ammonia is still going to be needed to produce and feed the bacteria in the filter and substrate.

I was making my assumption on these 2 threads that seem to suggest that if you're running decent lighting, CO2 AND plant heavily from the outset then traditional fishless cycling i.e. ammonia is unnecessary. It all seems a bit confusing and the subject of mass debate:

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...e+without+plant

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showto...e+without+plant

I'm assuming from these threads I could add a few fish relatively early on but very slowly and the large amount of plants would cope with the load.

 

[Dave Spencer]

I'm assuming from these threads I could add a few fish relatively early on but very slowly and the large amount of plants would cope with the load.

That was my interpretation also and as I mentioned, I have had no problems with my delicate species. I do wonder exactly what the capability of my filter bacteria is though. If I was to remove all my plants I suspect there would be a sharp rise in Ammonia.

 

[Aeropars]

Plants will utilise ammonia and nitrite but are not essential to growth which is why a heavily planted tank will not neccessarily need cycling.

 

[Underwurlde]

Ah yes, I got confused by your wording. I think this principle is based on a technique pioneered by Diana Walstad?
Makes sense to me now....

Andy.

 

[cdb2]

Opps, my bad....

Tropica Master Grow+ which is now called AquaCare Plant Nutrition+ Liquid I belive is (and I quote from their web-site)
"Contains all essential nutrients needed and also includes Nitrogen N & Phosphorus P."

So if you are NPK dosing already, no need for it.

Andy

It appears from the website that :

"PLANT NUTRITION+ liquid is suitable for aquariums with many plants in relation to the number of fish, where plants can lack nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P) which otherwise would be supplied by fish excrement and food remnants. PLANT NUTRITION+ liquid contains nitrogen (N) and phosphorus (P). Dosage must therefore be adapted to plant absorption rates, to avoid undesirable algae growth. Where signs of algae growth develop, reduce the dosage by 50% and increase water changing frequency by 50 %.

PLANT NUTRITION liquid contains the most important nutrients for healthy and sustained aquarium plant growth. PLANT NUTRITION liquid does not however contain nitrogen (N) or phosphorus (P). PLANT NUTRITION liquid therefore supplies the nutrients plants easily run out of and which plants ideally absorb via the leaves. These are the nutrients which are supplied via fish excrement and food remnants. We therefore recommend PLANT NUTRITION liquid for aquariums with few plants and a relatively large number of fish."

I'm therefore assuming that I'll need the Nutrition+ as there will be a high number of plants. I was just concerned about the possible algae growth warning with Nutrition+ but I guess that would only happen if you used it with few plants which is not what it is designed for!

 

[Dave Spencer]

I'm therefore assuming that I'll need the Nutrition+ as there will be a high number of plants. I was just concerned about the possible algae growth warning with Nutrition+ but I guess that would only happen if you used it with few plants which is not what it is designed for!

I use the dry ferts from AquaEssentials and dosie to maintain an excess above what my plants can take in. This means that plant development should never be stunted and, provided I have a sufficient plantload that is growing well, the algae will not be able to get a decent foot hold by taking up the excess nutrients.

 

[Underwurlde]

Don't really know because I've never used it, but this product *looks like* Rich Mans Dosing Drops for Tom Barr's EI. They even talk about leaf absorbtion of ferts straight from the water column.

It looks good to go for your set-up IMO, but there are cheaper ways of doing this.... (i.e. PMDD).

Andy

 

[cdb2]

Great responses so far people, thank you very much.

What is PMDD btw please???

 

[Dave Spencer]

What is PMDD btw please???

Often wondered what it stood for myself, but it is referring to the dry fertilisers available at Aquaessentials. Add them to RO water for the cheap method of dosing your tank.

http/www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?...x&cPath=145