Please Can I Have Some Setting Up Advice!

[katenacci]

Hi, am a newbie to site and to tropical fish. Like site and am enjoying reading all about fishless cycles.
Have bought an Elite 60litre tank, came with heater and filter. Have washed gravel, soaked bog wood, filled up tank, added aqua plus (and cycle but have discovered no good reading through site), filter and heater running. Water bit cloudy.

I will go to shops tomorrow to buy ammonia and water test kits, will start fishless cycle, be silly not to.

Air stone and air pump - do you take these out after running cycle? And are you meant to clean tank walls with special algae scraper while cycling, or does that defeat object?

Am I best to wait for my current water to clear before adding ammonia?

My filter instructions say to clean media each week, is this still the case with fishless cycle? Surely I would only be destroying any bacteria that I am trying to build up.

Also can someone explain reason for fishless cycle if at the end you have to do 90% water change, surely this gets rid of most of goodness in water prior to adding fish?

Thanks for any help in advance - I am a bit daunted by it all, but am a perfectionist so want to get it right for my future fish. I realise I sound like a complete novice!

 

[Bigbadbaz]

Hello, I will answer to the best of my ability

Airstone and pump: These are for oxygenation the water when you finsh are in the tank, it is fine to set the tank up with them in but you do not need to run the pump until you have fish in.

Waiting for water to clear: Will not make any difference, cloudyness is just aeration of the water, may as well start your cycle.

To clean your media rinse it with tank water only. If you use tap water you will kill any bacteria. I would not worry too much about cleaning the media whilst cycling either as there are not going to be any particles as such ie: fish waste.

At the end of you cycle you are clearing the tank of waste water, the bacteria you have been growning is safely in the filter so you are not throwing any of the goodness away.

Hope this helps.

Baz

 

[Rooster]

Hi, am a newbie to site and to tropical fish. Like site and am enjoying reading all about fishless cycles.
Have bought an Elite 60litre tank, came with heater and filter. Have washed gravel, soaked bog wood, filled up tank, added aqua plus (and cycle but have discovered no good reading through site), filter and heater running. Water bit cloudy.

Im not sure of these products, or possible effect on cycle... I would be tempted to start afresh - perhaps other users could comment ?

I will go to shops tomorrow to buy ammonia and water test kits, will start fishless cycle, be silly not to.

This is THE thing to do ! Well done... better to start right than patch problems !

Air stone and air pump - do you take these out after running cycle? And are you meant to clean tank walls with special algae scraper while cycling, or does that defeat object?

The airstone and pump are YOUR choice, if you like them, keep them.... unless its powering your filter, in which case you need to keep the pump
During the cycle, I wouldnt bother cleaning the glass

Am I best to wait for my current water to clear before adding ammonia?

See comment above, but no... doubt it will make any difference.

My filter instructions say to clean media each week, is this still the case with fishless cycle? Surely I would only be destroying any bacteria that I am trying to build up.

NO, NO NO NO NO.... get it yet ? lol Manufacturers always tell us we "need" to get our money... the media NEVER needs changing unless its clogged beyond use, or falling apart ! I have media 20 years old... all it gets is a swish in old tank water during a water change.

Also can someone explain reason for fishless cycle if at the end you have to do 90% water change, surely this gets rid of most of goodness in water prior to adding fish?

We are cycling the filter ONLY... the water and to all intents, the rest of the tank plays no part... you could cycle the filter in a bucket if you liked, but the concentrations of ammonia would be hard to control, due to the water volume being a LOT smaller than a tank...

Thanks for any help in advance - I am a bit daunted by it all, but am a perfectionist so want to get it right for my future fish. I realise I sound like a complete novice!

This is the perfect way to approach the project.... Im sure a lot of problems could be avoided by folk asking before running into difficulties !

 

[nosoup4you]

 

[dwilli36]

I have used cycle by nutrafin before too. It seemed to help. I did keep my water temp. at about 76 degrees to help speed up the process.

 

[rabbut]

I have cycled with API, Tetra safe start and Nutrafin Cycle before, as well as cycling without and bacteria in the bottle products... Regardless of which product I used, the cycle took the same length of time as an adverage cycle that you would do without adding any majic liquids... IMO for that reason they are a waste of money, but they won't do any harm. You have them now, so you may as well use them, but I would not waste cash on them in future

The filter needs cleaning as, if, and when it cloggs

The Eliete tanks have the stingray filters included don't they? If so, there is a zeolite cartridge supplied that you need to remove and/or modify, as it will mess up your cycle Zeolite is an ammonia removing chemical media that will out-compete the filter bacteria preventing the cycle, untill it becomes saturated. At this point it needs replacing, and the process starts all over again. Zeolite is a clever way for manufacturers to get the money in your pocket into theirs, as your tank becomes reliant on those cartriges to run, forcing you to buy regular replacements. It's dremel (fancy circular saw cutting tool if your not formiliar with them) and biomax time for the cartidge

All the best
Rabbut

 

[alchemist]

Yes - these Elite tanks come with Stingray filters which have 2x Zeolite / Carbon mixed media packs inside.

 

[rabbut]

You need to cut those cartridges open somehow (I would use a dremmel, though a new and sharp craft knife may work ) and ditch their contents. The zeolite will prevent the tank from cycling. I would add something like biomax (a ceramic ring biological media) to the space resulting from the removal of the zeolite, and them I'd glue the cartridge shut again

HTH
Rabbut

 

[Jazzzz]

Hi, am a newbie to site and to tropical fish. Like site and am enjoying reading all about fishless cycles.
Have bought an Elite 60litre tank, came with heater and filter. Have washed gravel, soaked bog wood, filled up tank, added aqua plus (and cycle but have discovered no good reading through site), filter and heater running. Water bit cloudy.

I will go to shops tomorrow to buy ammonia and water test kits, will start fishless cycle, be silly not to.

Air stone and air pump - do you take these out after running cycle? And are you meant to clean tank walls with special algae scraper while cycling, or does that defeat object?

Am I best to wait for my current water to clear before adding ammonia?

My filter instructions say to clean media each week, is this still the case with fishless cycle? Surely I would only be destroying any bacteria that I am trying to build up.

Also can someone explain reason for fishless cycle if at the end you have to do 90% water change, surely this gets rid of most of goodness in water prior to adding fish?

Thanks for any help in advance - I am a bit daunted by it all, but am a perfectionist so want to get it right for my future fish. I realise I sound like a complete novice!

welcome, and well done you are doing it right makes a reall nice change

 

[katenacci]

You need to cut those cartridges open somehow (I would use a dremmel, though a new and sharp craft knife may work ) and ditch their contents. The zeolite will prevent the tank from cycling. I would add something like biomax (a ceramic ring biological media) to the space resulting from the removal of the zeolite, and them I'd glue the cartridge shut again

HTH
Rabbut

Thank you so much for your help, its invaluable. Especially bit about Zeolite/Carbon filter bit. New headache, which filter to use? Surely they have devised a reason to put Zeolite in (to lure us all in to buying replacements), it must do some trick to the water. So I have to remove then? IF I did go for fish in cycle would I be best to keep zeolite in for a while. Have seen air pumps and tester kits but it puts my bill up by about 70 quid, I am thinking about adding a couple of hardy fish in about 2 weeks and trying out fish in cycle. Oops, sorry I know this isnt the recommended way

 

[rabbut]

If you fish-in cycle, a test kit is required even more. With a fishless, you can add enough fish food each day to feed a full tank of fish, do a couple of waterchanges with gravel vac's a week to control ammonia and have a weekly watertest done at the LFS without doing any harm to livestock. With fish-in cycles, ammonia and nitrite need to be below 0.25ppm, or you will do serious (and permanant in the case of ammonia) damage to the fish and possibly even kill them. How do you know if ammonia or nitrite are above 0.25 without a test kit? Simple; you can't, so chances are you will loose some or all your fish

The zeolite will prevent the biological part of the filter from working. It does this by removing all the ammonia before the filter bacteria can get to it. This makes you reliant on the zeolite. If it become saturated, you need to replace it imediately or risk loosing your fish. You can bet at some point that it will become saturated on one of the few days a year when the LFS's are closed and you have no spares, leaving you a long way down the river without a paddle, with a massive waterfall a few feet away

Zeolite will also remove medications from the water This is a problem if you need to treat for anything like Whatespot, fungus e.t.c

I personally don't rate the Stingray filters at all, but they can be made to work with modifications. If I were to run another internal filter instead, it would be from the Fluval + range. They are virtually indestructable and well made. You do pay for this however (about £30 for one for your sized tank where other brands are about half that price). After Fluval, all other internals preform about the same, so if a Fluval isn't in your budget, go for a filter that can hold most media off the shelf if you opt to remplace the Stingray

Shopping list for next LFS visuit should include a liquid regent based test kit if you don't have one already. The strips are not worth the paper they are printed on, and work out more expencive than liquid kits per test Test kits arent out-and-out essential, but when you find a problem when you get home on an evening after the LFS's have closed you don't want to know if ammonia and/or nitrite have raised tomorrow morning, you need those stats NOW, before you loose fish, rather than after the following morning

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Schmill]

I can only echo the reasons above for getting a test kit, it can make the difference between these 2 posts;

"My fish are behaving oddly tonight so I tested the water, these are the readings, any idea what is wrong?"

"My fish were behaving oddly last night and I woke up this morning to find all but one dead. I took a sample of water to the LFS and it had these readings, is this what killed them? When I got home the last one had died too "

I'd never be without a test kit these days...

 

[katenacci]

If you fish-in cycle, a test kit is required even more. With a fishless, you can add enough fish food each day to feed a full tank of fish, do a couple of waterchanges with gravel vac's a week to control ammonia and have a weekly watertest done at the LFS without doing any harm to livestock. With fish-in cycles, ammonia and nitrite need to be below 0.25ppm, or you will do serious (and permanant in the case of ammonia) damage to the fish and possibly even kill them. How do you know if ammonia or nitrite are above 0.25 without a test kit? Simple; you can't, so chances are you will loose some or all your fish

The zeolite will prevent the biological part of the filter from working. It does this by removing all the ammonia before the filter bacteria can get to it. This makes you reliant on the zeolite. If it become saturated, you need to replace it imediately or risk loosing your fish. You can bet at some point that it will become saturated on one of the few days a year when the LFS's are closed and you have no spares, leaving you a long way down the river without a paddle, with a massive waterfall a few feet away

Zeolite will also remove medications from the water This is a problem if you need to treat for anything like Whatespot, fungus e.t.c

I personally don't rate the Stingray filters at all, but they can be made to work with modifications. If I were to run another internal filter instead, it would be from the Fluval + range. They are virtually indestructable and well made. You do pay for this however (about £30 for one for your sized tank where other brands are about half that price). After Fluval, all other internals preform about the same, so if a Fluval isn't in your budget, go for a filter that can hold most media off the shelf if you opt to remplace the Stingray

Shopping list for next LFS visuit should include a liquid regent based test kit if you don't have one already. The strips are not worth the paper they are printed on, and work out more expencive than liquid kits per test Test kits arent out-and-out essential, but when you find a problem when you get home on an evening after the LFS's have closed you don't want to know if ammonia and/or nitrite have raised tomorrow morning, you need those stats NOW, before you loose fish, rather than after the following morning

All the best
Rabbut

Thank you again for sharing your knowledge. I shall buy a liquid test kit, and take out the carbon/zeolite part of filter. I will look in LFS for boimax to replace it.
I have been running my tank for 7 days with dechlorinated water, cycle, and few flakes of fish food. Performed a 10% water change yesterday with gravel vac. Could you give me your advice on way forward once carbon/zeolite out of filter. Maybe I should really do fishless cycle, sounds like any bacteria that may have started forming won't be present due to the zeolite - those Elite/Stingray bods are quite clever at taking money from unknowing people like myself.
Thanks again, I do appreciate help. I guess what puts me off about fishless cycle is the numbers, stats, time and my 3 young children who need me constantly - but hey thats the same for a lot of us!!

 

[rabbut]

Fishless cycling is less work than fish-in cycling. With a "typical" fish-in cycle you test the water twice daily, and do two 50%+ waterchanges daily accordingly. With a fishless, it's just testing twice daily

With a fishless cycle you can either use liquid ammonia (prefered by most where available, as you have more control over the readings ) or with fish food flakes

All the best
Rabbut

 

[katenacci]

You need to cut those cartridges open somehow (I would use a dremmel, though a new and sharp craft knife may work ) and ditch their contents. The zeolite will prevent the tank from cycling. I would add something like biomax (a ceramic ring biological media) to the space resulting from the removal of the zeolite, and them I'd glue the cartridge shut again

HTH
Rabbut

Thanks (again), just researching on biomax ceramic ring media, this says to change it regularly. Would you recommend changing? If I have dremmeled out stingray cartridge and replaced with biomax, and glued shut, I wont be able to open again.