Please Can I Get Some Approval/denial On This Stocking Idea?

[Akasha72]

hard water fish - all the livebearers so guppies, platies, mollies, swordtails. If you don't want babies just get a bachelor group. There might be a bit of bickering between them but it's managable. In terms of hardy, well the livebearer used to be a hardy fish. They do tend to be a bit weaker these days because of mass farming but kept in the right water they should last reasonably well.
 
As a beginner I'd recommend going down the route of livebearers. It was where I began and looking back it was the best option. They were easy to take care of and lasted about 2 years and by then I'd got some experience under my belt and I felt ready to move on

 

[Baccus]

I dont know how readily available they might be to you or even their going price range. But a small group liking hard water tolerant catfish that springs to mind are Moth Catfish from China, Hara jerdoni. They probably wont be as active as corydoras but they certainly are cute little catfish and would suit the kind of set up your thinking of creating.
Livebearers are always the first fish considered, not only for first time fish keepers but also for people in hard water areas. The trouble with many livebearers is just that, one female and male and you can be overrun by offspring in no time. The other thing to consider with many livebearers is that they are active so small tanks all though ok in the sense the fish can fit comfortably in them, dont always allow for all the extra activity that livebearers can have. Also many for example guppy strains/ breeds are very delicate now from years of inbreeding/ line breeding to develop and stabalise a particular colour/ pattern. If you can get a group of say 5 male blackbar Endlers (really hard not to get Endler x Guppy hybrids) then they will not dissapoint in vibrant colour, nor will they get huge unless they are hybrids.
 
If you did go with the Moth Catfish then you may even consider doing a semi- biotype tank with them and also add other small peaceful hard water liking fish from the same region as the moth catfish. Some fish you might consider would be Dario dario, Puntius gelius and Schistura corica

 

[marnold00]

Thanks all for the responses. I'll do some research and then come back with some combinations

CaCO3 is calcium carbonate, and at 311 ppm it means fairly hard water.
 
Fish preferring or tolerating moderately hard or harder water will manage.  Livebearers are in this category, as are rift lake cichlids, some (but not all) rainbowfishes, and a few others.  Many of these will need much larger tanks, but there are suitable species.
 
Now that we know the hardness, if you do want to go down the road of adjusting water parameters, you need to dilute the tap water with pure water.  "Pure" water includes Reverse Osmosis water, distilled water, and rain water (if otherwise safe).  Mixing half/half for example will reduce the GH by half, so it is proportional.  The KH will be similarly reduced, and the ph will lower accordingly.
 
Bottled water may or may not be useable, depending what is in it.  Some people have a water softener for their general water, but this can be even worse for fish, depending how the softener works.  Many use sodium chloride salts to remove calcium salts, but the level of sodium chloride is even more trouble for fish.
 
Byron.

OK so my numbers are as follows - thank you Bill and Ben (LFS) for doing this one on the house :

pH 7.6
GH 14 Degrees
KH 16.8 Degrees

 

[Byron]

The GH at 14 dGH is a tad lower than the CaCO3 of 133 ppm (which equates to 17 dGH) so you are still in the fairly hard water general area.  The KH is high (as one would expect with the high GH, though this does not always follow) and this means the pH will remain quite stable.  KH acts as a sort of buffer to prevent pH fluctuation.  The pH at 7.6 is good.
 
Baccus and Akasha have provided some good and interesting suggestions.  Just keep in mind the tank size.  Livebearers such as swordtails and mollies are not going to work in this small a space (to the fish it is small) as they grow too large.  Endler's, guppies, and platy will.  Staying with only males (which are the more colourful in some cases) will avoid the hundreds of fry that having male/female will cause in no time.  Aside from livebearers and the fish Baccus mentioned, the Whitecloud Mountain Minnow comes to mind.
 
Byron.

 

[marnold00]

You guys have been great

when I got my water tested I did have a look. A different member of staff to previous did insist on helping, and suggested potentially a barb tank with a couple of Kuhli Loaches? I really don't know what to believe with this person. I'm not lying when I say that phrases such as "your tank is quite small so you won't have to worry about doing water changes very often at all" - this may be accurate, but I've seen so many places say otherwise... I was going to do 25% weekly unless emergency action is required. Also received advice such as leaving the light on for only 4 hours a day. 
 
Being honest, the guppies just really didn't interest me

I know they have good colours and all, but they just look a bit... almost fake? I'm finding it hard to put in to words but they just didn't click with me, so for that case I think i'll rule them out.
 
If the barb advice is OK then I would really like the idea of them. They seemed to have such good personalities and I just watched them for ages - especially the tiger and 5 banded barbs.
 
The kuhli loaches were nice and active - would these be suitable? I do really think I would like bottom feeders in the tank. The only thing that came to mind is just how quick they move... wouldn't a 60l potentially be quite restrictive for them?
 
I saw some white clouds and thought they were absolutely stunning, and I like the idea of a relatively relaxed tank with the suggestions from Baccus.
 
I don't recall seeing the Moth catfish at the LFS, but I think I did at P@H (but please scream at me now if buying from there is a horrible idea).
 
How would cherry barbs be?
 
 
So far my ideas would be (and again, don't feel bad about shouting at me if my ideas are rubbish! there's a good reason why i'm asking all of this before I get any fish):
 
Number 1
5 5 Band barbs or tiger barbs and 2 Kuhli Loaches
 
Number 2
I've read Schistura Coricas are best on their own in a small tank?
1 Schistura or 2 Moth Catfish (assuming I can find them), 5 White Cloud Minnows and 1 Dario Dario (again I've read that more than 1 male would be bad... Is it OK to just have the 1?)
 
Number 3
If the Dario Dario are definitely best in a group, then the same as number 2 only 1 male and 4 female of them, and no Minnows
 
Please do feel free to suggest other combinations and stuff

 
 
Also, out of the above, what's the best fish to get when my tank has just finish cycling? I understand that the white clouds are hardy

 

[Byron]

You guys have been great 

 when I got my water tested I did have a look. A different member of staff to previous did insist on helping, and suggested potentially a barb tank with a couple of Kuhli Loaches? I really don't know what to believe with this person. I'm not lying when I say that phrases such as "your tank is quite small so you won't have to worry about doing water changes very often at all" - this may be accurate, but I've seen so many places say otherwise... I was going to do 25% weekly unless emergency action is required. Also received advice such as leaving the light on for only 4 hours a day.
 

 
Lots of knowledgeable members here, and we want you to be successful, not give up with problem after problem and dying fish.  Most of us have been through this ourselves.
 
Water changes are absolutely essential in any aquarium with fish.  There are benefits that cannot be achieved by any other means (except nature, or continuous flow through fresh water) including filters.  The frequency and volume can depend upon the fish load to some extent, but if one starts by recognizing that no matter how many fish or whatever the tank size, the more water you change the better, you will be on the right track.  I do 50-60% of my tanks every week without fail, and I have a fish room with 8 tanks currently.  This is essential maintenance for the health of the fish, plain and simple.  I would recommend you do one water change a week, and aim for half the tank.  This is not a large tank, and chances are you will have it heavily stocked because of that.  After all, no one wants to see three or four fish in a tank, and provided you do the water changes, feed sparingly, and have a compatible selection of fish, this is achievable.
 
"Compatible" fish has many factors, aside from just behaviours (aggression, etc).  Water parameters, environment (meaning the decor, the type of substrate, wood/rock, plants) and the activity level of the fish species all factor in.  Putting active fish in with sedate fish for example immediately increases their effect on the bio-load because you are creating stress and that means the fish were work harder just to "live."
 

If the barb advice is OK then I would really like the idea of them. They seemed to have such good personalities and I just watched them for ages - especially the tiger and 5 banded barbs.
 

 
The only barb species suited to this small a tank is the cherry barb.  Barbs are very active fish, which means room for swimming, and being shoaling fish they must have a group.  Six is usually suggested as minimum for shoaling fish, but we must remember that this is an arbitrary number and all shoaling fish will always be healthier the more there are.  But cherrys are smallish, not quite as active as other barbs, and could work.  They are technically soft water fish, but they may manage though it would not be my preference.
 
You mention Tiger Barbs...this species should have a 30g minimum tank to themselves, and be 10-12 in number.  Some substrate fish could work, but no other upper fish without a larger (than 30g) tank.  This species is not only active, it is prone to fin nip and having this number in a 30g tends usually to reduce this.  And sedate fish are a "no" with nippy fish, just so you know.
 

The kuhli loaches were nice and active - would these be suitable? I do really think I would like bottom feeders in the tank. The only thing that came to mind is just how quick they move... wouldn't a 60l potentially be quite restrictive for them?
 

 
Here again we have a soft water species, and one that may have more trouble with harder water.  They also tend to hide, being semi-nocturnal, so you might not find them all that obvious.
 
I've covered your "Number 1" above.  
 
Re "Number 2," the Schistura corsica (now classified in the genus Nemacheilus as N. corsica) requires a bit different aquascape.  A hillside stream with some good water current, and slightly cooler temperatures than many "tropicals" need.  But a good match with the white clouds, which are from similar environments.  I would not include Dario dario though, this fish is a slow-water fish, and best in a small group, usually on its own in a 10g works well.
 
Some fish are best added to established tanks, others not so fussy.  This is different from "cycled," and means the aquarium has been running with fish for a couple months or longer.  I would agree that Dario dario is such a fish, whereas the white clouds are fine in newer tanks.

 

[marnold00]

Ok that is helpful. I thought your views would differ to that from the shop - I'll go with you guys! 
 
Not going to lie, I'm finding this a lot trickier now it's hard water! I'm a rather fussy person... But i shall continue, and I WILL have fish.
 
It's a pity about the barbs, but I half expected that response.
 
 
You mentioned rainbow fish earlier on - are there any that I may have missed that could suit both the small tank and hard water? So far I've found a big fat zero compatible with my tank.
 
 
The hardest bit I'm trying to sort out is the fish on the bottom layer. I feel like I have a nice selection of mid/top fish to choose from, ranging from cold to slightly warm, fast moving to slow. Plenty of which definitely grab my interest.
 
I've got the choice of the moth catfish and the corsica - both of which I can't say for sure would be available locally for me. Is there any others that may have been missed? I know the small tank makes this difficult, but hey ho it was the biggest I could do - discussions with landlord etc.

 

[Byron]

There may be a number of suitable harder water fish; this is an area in which I am not well versed as for the past 20 years I have had very soft and acidic source water and confined myself to such fish.  When species are suggested, it is easy enough to confirm parameter needs, etc.
 
Here's some good info on the loach (N. corica)
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/nemacheilus-corica/
check especially under Maintenance.
 
And on the H. jerdoni,
http/www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hara-jerdoni/
 
Another member, I think Baccus, has more experience with rainbowfish than I do and is thus better able to suggest species.  I know of some larger species, but not sure if any of the smaller are OK with harder water, some of these are soft to moderate water.
 
As you'll see from the linked profiles, plants may or may not be workable in some of these situations, so keep that in mind.
 
Sometimes putting together a community can take a lot of research.  And don't be dismayed by what may be available locally.  Some of these fish are commercially raised and that usually means more frequent availability in stores, but many are wild caught and that can mean seeing them once a year.  Once you have the general plan for the tank, you may find that waiting a few months for this or that is well worth it.
 
Byron.

 

[Akasha72]

you know what would be a good idea for you marnold ... pop to your local library and take out some fish books and have a flick through and see what grabs your attention. Many of the books will give you information about each individual fish - what its pH range is, hard or soft water, minimum tank size needed, etc. Everything you really need to know. You can then add a bookmark to each page of the fish that interest you and within a bit of time you have a list. It's much easier than walking into a fish store - trying to memorise fish names to then come home and research each one. 
 
 
On to your comment about pets@home. Well the problem I have with them is that all their tanks are on a sump system which means one filter for every tank in the store. If one fish comes in sick the potential for all their stock to be sick is extreemly high and so for this reason I generally wouldn't buy from such a store. My local pets@home is less than 5 minutes from my home (I can see the store from my windows!) and I also have a dog aswell as my fish and so I'm in the store regular. Each time I go in I look at the fish (just to be nosy) and every time there are several dead fish in several tanks. If you plan on buying from there I would get a second tank running as a quarantine tank and keep it in there for at least 2-3 weeks to make sure it's not bringing anything in

 

[marnold00]

Very helpful again! I shall get some books this weekend and go from there. I've got loads of time, so I may as well use it wisely. The better I use research time, the more enjoyable raising the fish is going to be!

 

[marnold00]

Interestingly, I just thought I'd test the water that my driftwood is currently soaking in. I change this water daily.

I used hot water from my hot water cylinder which is using the exact same water as cold (yes my flat heats drinking water), but the pH from the wood water was 7.4. GH was the same, but KH was also reduced to just over 15... This doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Akasha72]

okay ... I'll explain. When you add bogwood to water it starts to leech tannins which can have a softening effect on the water - it's partly the reason why the waters in the Amazon are so low in pH/gH/kH ... it's the submerged wood and plant matter that is reducing the pH etc.
 
In my own tank - my tap pH is around 7.4 with a gH and kH of virtually zero. I also have one enormous lump of bogwood and a couple of smaller bits too. This means my tank runs at anything between pH 5 and pH 6. The lack of gH and kH means there are no minerals either to help it to remain at the same as the tap.
 
What is happening to this bucket holding your wood is the same. The difference between you and me is that you have far more minerals in your tap water to help the pH maintain itself. You will see a lowering of the three but not as significant as someone like me for instance.
 
Does that make sense (it's late, I'm tired 

)

 

[marnold00]

That makes total sense in some ways then the higher hardness and PH are proving a bit of a blessing for stability. I'll definitely make sure the wood is in the tank well before any fish though just in case

I'd definitely prefer to live in slightly dodgy conditions that stay consistent rather than ones always changing...

 

[Akasha72]

I'm afraid it's a bit of a wait and see situation. The wood will soften things a little but it's impossible to tell you how much as it seems to vary dependent on wood size and even the type of wood

 

[marnold00]

Well I must be doing something right it seems! Got a little flower bud on one of my Anubias Nana's