Planted Tank Plan

[hakova]

Hi there,

I am a newbie, so please excuse my stupid questions. I have a shelf over a fireplace in my small house, the only place I think I can fit a fish tank. The width of the shelf is 10.5 inches. I walked around in a couple of LFSs today, with a tape measure in my hand, to find out that only a 10 gallon tank can be fitted in that shelf. Bigger tanks are all 12 inches wide, meaning that they will have 1.5 inch extending beyond this shelf. Since I thought this wouldn't be ideal and may cause leaks, I decided to go with a 10 gallon tank, unwillingly. At that juncture, I figured that all of the 10 gallon tanks I saw had incandescent light fixtures. Now, I want to have a planted tank, especially with some plants that need high light intensity (e.g. glossostigma). I am not sure if incandescent bulbs (2) will provide that amount of light, besides being environmentally unfriendly, non-economical and having a short life span. The light fixtures were designed for tubular bulbs, and the available bulbs were 15 and 25 watts. They did not have any light spectrum information on their package. I also saw a 10w fluorescent bulb, that was tubular and could be screwed in the same fixture. It supposedly had 40% more light output than the incandescents. Again, no light spectrum information was available. I also visited my grocery store to see a 20w cfl bulb was not exactly tubular. I am not sure if I can fit that bulb in, without having to remove the plastic water shield. No light spectrum information on there, either. I wish I can either find a larger tank <11 inch wide or find a way to fit cfl bulbs or fluorescent tubes with appropriate light spectrum for photosynthesis. Does anybody have any experience in establishing a planted tank under similar conditions? Any suggestion is welcome.

My second question is about the fish-less but planted cycling. I really don't want to get into an algae problem before starting the tank. I think this is more likely to happen during a fish-less cycle, with repeated ammonia additions. I have no hurry in finishing the cycling, do you think I should try to do cycling with a few fish or shrimp instead? I read elsewhere that the shrimps may reproduce quickly and may cause trouble by being sucked in the canister filter and living there, etc. Can anybody provide quick tips about them? I don't want them to reproduce too much or very quickly. I don't want to collect them from all over the place either. I don't want to kill or harm them during gravel vacuuming. Please help me with your tips.

Thanks in advance.

 

[ellena]

Hi, welcome to the forums. I'm a newbie too, so don't have the answers to all your Qs, but here are a few things that may help
The idea of a tank on a shelf is ringing alarm bells with me-is it strong enough? Water weighs 1kg per litre, plus tank, sand, rocks etc.
If it is, what about either having another shelf fitted that's deep enough or having a tank custom built? (the shelf would probably be the cheapest)
I've done a fishless cycle with plants and I wouldn't again. It messes with the stats and, in my case, the plants died. If I were you, I'd do a fishless cycle in a tank with nothing living in it.
On the idea of shrimp, I know they are very sensitive to water quality, so you wouldn't be able to use them to cycle.
Hope that helps spme, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along soon.

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum Hakova.
A simple setup is easier to control because there are less factors to take into account when analyzing what is happening in your tank. As Ellena said, the fact that there are plants needs to be taken into account by those giving advice so be sure to mention it if you go that way. I have had mixed success using compact fluorescents, the twisted kind, in an incandescent hood. In one 10 gallon I used a 13W CFL and had good success with low light plants. In another 10 gallon hood, I used 2 CFLs because it was made for 2 bulbs and in a short time, about 3 months, I unplugged the fixture because I could smell the plastic being scorched. The bulbs I was using were rated at 13W each and the hood was rated for 25W incandescents but it just was not working out right. If I want intense light now, I either get a power compact kit to bring the light levels up or get a T-5 HO fixture to use in the hood. Spectrum is not as important as some of the extreme plant people seem to think. There is considerable evidence that any light, within the band used by plants, will result in about the same plant growth regardless of the spectral rating of the bulb. For that reason I use bulbs where the color appeals to my sense of esthetics. For me that is a bulb that is often marked as a "daylight" bulb with a 5700K spectrum.

 

[hakova]

Thanks ellena for the answers. My shelf sits on a brick wall that surrounds the fireplace in an inverted U fashion, so I am pretty sure it will carry whatever. Unfortunately, another shelf will not be an option per my wife . For a custom built fish tank I don't seem to have many options after a google search.

Thanks for your insight for fishless planted cycle. I guess what you are saying is to complete the cycle first and then add some plants and animals. I also read that plants consume ammonia, competing with the bacteria and messing up the stats, confirming your experience.

One of my biggest concerns is the lighting, secondary to the size issue. I don't know if using hang-on-top light fixtures will enable me to use fluorescent bulbs, instead of a hood. If so, then I need to figure out which type of school fish do not jump out of water in a topless tank. My primary focus will be plants in this tank, the fish and shrimp will be there to complete the picture.

 

[SwordtailLover]

I am currently doing a fishless cycle with plants in a 37 gallon tank at the moment, and it is taking quite some time. I have added mature media from my smaller 10 gallon tank which is completely cycled, and I have had the ammonia drop down to 0 ppm once in two weeks. So, I'm not sure if it's the size of my tank, or the fact that I have plants in it that is slowing it down, but I could see how doing the cycle without plants would make it go faster, and be more safe.

As for the shelf, like ellena has stated, I would be cautious to put anything on a shelf that size that weighs as much as a 10 gallon fully loaded tank does. Also, because it's near a fire place, that might mess with the temperature in the tank, making it hard to keep a steady temperature in the winter. I'm not sure how close the shelf is to the actual opening of the fire place, but because the hot air will rise, I think it might slightly affect your tank temp.

You could maybe talk your wife into going to your LFS with you to look at stands, and see if she can be talked into one. Some of the tanks are beautiful, and would go well with your house decor. I've found a 37 gallon + stand that looks absolutely stunning in my room, and I'm sure there is something there available for you.

Good luck with your planted tank, and I hope that everything works out great for you. : ) Have a great day!

 

[hakova]

... In another 10 gallon hood, I used 2 CFLs because it was made for 2 bulbs and in a short time, about 3 months, I unplugged the fixture because I could smell the plastic being scorched. The bulbs I was using were rated at 13W each and the hood was rated for 25W incandescents but it just was not working out right. If I want intense light now, I either get a power compact kit to bring the light levels up or get a T-5 HO fixture to use in the hood. Spectrum is not as important as some of the extreme plant people seem to think. There is considerable evidence that any light, within the band used by plants, will result in about the same plant growth regardless of the spectral rating of the bulb. For that reason I use bulbs where the color appeals to my sense of esthetics. For me that is a bulb that is often marked as a "daylight" bulb with a 5700K spectrum.

Thank you for the warm welcome OldMan47. The 10 gallon tank I found has a very similar hood you had experience with, if not the same. It has two incandescent light fixtures rated for 25W each. So I think I will avoid putting CFLs in there. For a power compact or T-5 kit, will I still use the formula of 3-4 watts/gallon for intense lighting? Or because these have higher lumen, they should actually have a lower wattage? Also some of these power compact kits come with half actinic half daylight bulbs, I don't need the actinic part because this will be a fresh water tank, right?

 

[hakova]

.... Also, because it's near a fire place, that might mess with the temperature in the tank, making it hard to keep a steady temperature in the winter. I'm not sure how close the shelf is to the actual opening of the fire place, but because the hot air will rise, I think it might slightly affect your tank temp.

Thank you SwordTailLover,

I forgot to mention that we don't use the fireplace in winter , it is just an accessory now. I will take my wife to the LFS although our house is really very small and I really cannot seem to find a suitable corner/edge for fish tank stand of any size. If I could, I would surely put some pressure, whatever it was worth .

Sounds like the cycling will be without the plants.

 

[hakova]

After a long day of online searching, I came up with two possible lighting solutions for my 20"x10" 10 gallon FW project:

1. Dual T5 HO fixture. This will total to 36 watts (2x18) by 16.5" T5s that have 10,000K color temperature.
Advantage: I can adjust the wattage by taking one of the bulbs off, if the light intensity starts to harm the plants.
Disadvantage: 10,000K color temperature may not be ideal for my purpose.

2. Dual power compact kit. This may total to 80 watts (2x40) by 17" compact fluorescent lamps. Each 40W lamp has 50% 6,700K, 50% 10,000K color temperature.
Advantage: Plenty of light, wider color temperature coverage for eye candy.
Disadvantage: Twice more expensive. I cannot decrease the light intensity to any value less than 40W. I need to buy a second hood if my plants start to show signs of too much light.

What would you recommend? Again, this is my first attempt to establish a planted fish tank. I aim to grow glossostigma or similar plant with carpeting effect, in addition to some longer body / leaf background plants. I read that it is difficult to get a carpeting effect mainly because of inadequate lighting. This is why I am trying to make sure I have enough light. On the other hand, it may be possible to overshoot and burn the plants with too much light. I just don't know if this is an actual possibility. Any suggestion will be much appreciated.

 

[SwordtailLover]

Well, with an output of 8 WPG, you'd need a CO2 setup, or else your algae will get out of control with all that excess light. If you want a lower maintenance PT, then I'd suggest going with a lower light than 3.6 WPG, which would be your first choice there. I have a 10 gallon set up with one 15 watt bulb running, and as 1.5 wpg seems low, it's doing great with some low light plants. I have some baby red wentii's strewn about, as well as some java fern. They're slow growing, but they're doing well. As for my 37 gallon, I only have about 1.2 WPG, (45 watts over 37 gallons of water) and my plants actually seem to be doing great. I have some water sprite, java fern, java moss, red wentii, and some pennywort (which from what I had read is a demanding light plant, but seems to be doing fine). I have not had any algae problems, and the water sprite are taking off! The ferns are producing new leaflets and I have already replanted them in my smaller tank.

Here is a link to George Farmer's lighting guide in the plant forums, Lighting Guide. If you read this, you'll have a little bit better understanding of the lighting aspect of the tank. With such a small tank, and a high output of light, you might find you're spending way more money than you actually need to to get a great looking tank. I'm completely new at the whole planted tank, like I had mentioned before, but from all of the reading and studying on the stuff, I'd say you definitely can get away with a great looking tank with low light. I'm sure Oldman47 has something to say about that; he has helped me numerous times before with lighting issues, and is very knowledgeable within the fish keeping hobby.

Good luck to you, and hope your tank looks great!

 

[hakova]

Thanks a lot for the link SwordtailLover. Ienjoyed reading it. I decided to go with the first option with a slight modification: I opted for a 24" fixture. It is 2x24 watts, and has sliding docking mounts for the tank. I actually read it from a book that if the light fixture is longer than the length of the tank that might help aquarium receiving light at the edges. During my fishless and plantless cycle, I will probably not turn on the lights not to encourage algae growth. Do you think just cycling the tank with the substrate in would cause the substrate lose its nutrients? I can't cycle without the substrate, since it is a surface that would help some bacteria attach and grow hopefully, right? I feel like I am thinking a little bit too anal sometimes.

Just ordered the filter, substrate, heater, and bunch of other stuff. I am bidding on a local 10 gallon tank through craigs list as well. Will start posting pictures and asking cycling related questions soon I guess. Can't wait!

 

[SwordtailLover]

It is important to have the heater, filter, and substrate as well as most decoration in the tank during your fishless cycle. The heater can be turned up to the higher range on it to provide for maximum bacteria growth. It should be up to about 82 degrees F or so I believe. Since you're going to cycle without the plants, make sure to put in all of the substrate and/or driftwood you will use while doing the cycle. The vast majority of your bacteria is going to be in your filter, but with your substrate/decor in, there are other areas for the bacteria to find a healthy home in : ). Also, by putting those down now, it will benefit you greatly by making it easier to put down the substrate without water in. What type of substrate did you decide to go on? It's not a bad idea to add the Laterite to your substrate to add extra nutrients for your plants later on. Without the lights on, that will not affect the loss of nutrients in the substrate, I'm pretty sure. Good luck again, and you might find yourself battling algae with that amount of light in that tank. : )

 

[hakova]

I will use laterite as the first layer (~1 inch), and on top Eco-complete (1-3 more inches, front to back). Great minds think alike I guess . I also thought I could always take one of the fluorescent tubes off, if there is too much light. Well, after all this will be an experiment, right? My hope is to cause minimal harm to the plants and fish. Once I get the tank cycling, I will look around at the specific section of this forum to figure if there is somebody nearby to donate some bacteria .