Plant problems

[Byron]

Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, my previous posts targeted the light because in my view this was not adequate and no amount of fertilizers will help in such a situation. And, without decent light, you will not grow aquarium plants--except algae. I have had opportunity over the years to experiment with all sorts of lighting, mainly T8, and I can assure everyone that not any tube will be adequate.

Now that the light is resolved, we/you need to look at the nutrients, so yes, the questions about these must be answered. I did not mean to suggest that you don't need them. But the light was obviously the first issue, now resolved.

 

[DutchMuch]

In order for lighting and fertilizers together not to cause algae, there needs to be a balance in between the two. which could takes months or maybe even years to figure out. Really is all in testing. I wasn't questioning your knowledge pardon myself, but I do have to disagree about what you said in regards to: " without decent light, you will not grow aquarium plants--except algae "
That is false depending on the context you meant it in, What is "decent lighting" in your sentence, what does that target and what does that mean exactly? im not trying to be a butt im just curious on your methods of things.

 

[Byron]

In order for lighting and fertilizers together not to cause algae, there needs to be a balance in between the two. which could takes months or maybe even years to figure out. Really is all in testing. I wasn't questioning your knowledge pardon myself, but I do have to disagree about what you said in regards to: " without decent light, you will not grow aquarium plants--except algae "
That is false depending on the context you meant it in, What is "decent lighting" in your sentence, what does that target and what does that mean exactly? im not trying to be a butt im just curious on your methods of things.

Questions are fine. Decent lighting means light that is of sufficient intensity to drive photosynthesis. This level varies among plant species; what is sufficient to drive photosynthesis in moss will not be anywhere near sufficient to drive photosynthesis in faster growing plants like stem plants for example.

Spectrum does enter this equation too. Red light (primarily) and blue drive photosynthesis. Adding green to the mix improves plant growth, possibly because of the increased intensity, since green light does not drive photosynthesis. But this mix of red/blue/green with a Kelvin around 5000-7000K is very close to sunlight, and plants have evolved to function under sun light, so it makes sense.

The duration enters the equation once the intensity and spectrum are settled. Too much light without sufficient nutrients in balance will cause algae because the plants cannot photosynthesize. Photosynthesis will be at the max, when the light is sufficient intensity/spectrum and all nutrients are available. As soon as one of these is missing, photosynthesis slows and may even cease. Algae again takes the advantage. This is Liebig's Law of Minimum, that plant growth (photosynthesis) does not depend upon any excess of light or nutrients, but on the first element to be used up, i.e. minimal, in the equation.

Tom Barr once told me that we should first get the lighting, then begin adding fertilizers up to the point where the balance is achieved. It is not too difficult to achieve this, if you know the lighting's capabilities.

 

[DutchMuch]

Just from reading the beginning of your write, decent lighting isn't the adequate and recommended lighting for a mid tech, low tech, or high tech setup. Jason/tom/plaintbrain is a nice guy, do you have a barrreport acc?

 

[Byron]

Just from reading the beginning of your write, decent lighting isn't the adequate and recommended lighting for a mid tech, low tech, or high tech setup. Jason/tom/plaintbrain is a nice guy, do you have a barrreport acc?

No to the account. I've emailed Tom a few times over the years.

I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the rest of your post here. If you mean that what is adequate for a low tech tank will not be adequate for a high tech, yes, most certainly. In my situation as an example, over my 90g tank I have two T8 4-foot tubes. Having tried all sorts of plants over several years, I have stayed with those that will grow under this light. Swords thrive, even the chain swords at the bottom. Crypts generally do well. Stem plants will not, there simply isn't enough light intensity to drive photosynthesis. I have floating plants which I consider mandatory for most any tank with forest fish, and these obviously impede some light. I would say I have low/moderate lighting; I've used this for 19 years now on this tank.

I have experimented with fertilizers. If I dose once a week with Flourish Comprehensive, all is well generally. I do a dose of Flourish Trace three days later, which seems to improve the Red Tiger Lotus. I was doing twice weekly doses of Flourish Comp, but it caused brush algae on the swords. Going back to once weekly ended the brush algae. I did that test twice, same result, so dosing too many nutrients (of the wrong sort I assume) can cause algae problems. This is because the light is not sufficient to balance the additional nutrients, and algae takes advantage.

I also got the duration on the tank settled at 8 hours. One hour more, and brush algae appears. In the summer, the additional daylight (intensity and duration) entering the fish room brought on brush algae. Blocking the windows solved this. Which only shows the sensitivity of the balance.

The 70g has the same lighting, but as this is a shallower tank (by 4-5 inches) I have only 7 hours duration, or algae is problematic.

Is this what you meant?

 

[DutchMuch]

I'm not sure I'm fully understanding the rest of your post here. If you mean that what is adequate for a low tech tank will not be adequate for a high tech, yes, most certainly.

Correct!
My dosing regime can be seen on my journal.
Also respect that you experiment with your lighting and fertilizers, I used to do that to and I still do, I think we all do as some plants will have a deficiency then you up that deficiency, then something else breaks out of line then you have to fix that until you find an equal balance again

 

[Byron]

Correct!
My dosing regime can be seen on my journal.
Also respect that you experiment with your lighting and fertilizers, I used to do that to and I still do, I think we all do as some plants will have a deficiency then you up that deficiency, then something else breaks out of line then you have to fix that until you find an equal balance again

Is the journal this:
http://www.fishforums.net/threads/dutchs-tryhard-dutch-fv.444750/

I've no idea what the DIY EI may be...not asking for details, just saying. EI is Estimative Index, and I am not a fan of using this method as it can harm fish. One thing to note about many planted tanks, including all of Tom's, is...there are no fish in them. That is a very different situation than my planted tanks which are fish first, and plants as useful and aesthetic.

 

[DutchMuch]

im plants first, but I have not read where while your dosing correct ranges that it can harm fish :
Concentrations(as per wets calculator):
Micro-
B- 0.09ppm
Cu 0.01ppm
Fe 0.50 ppm
Mg 0.11 ppm
Mn 0.14 ppm
Mo 0.0038 ppm
Zn 0.03 ppm
dGH 0.02


Macros:
N- 7.5ppm
P- 1.3ppm
K- 4.27ppm
This is the most common method of dosing, Publicly on TPT

 

[Byron]

im plants first, but I have not read where while your dosing correct ranges that it can harm fish :
Concentrations(as per wets calculator):
Micro-
B- 0.09ppm
Cu 0.01ppm
Fe 0.50 ppm
Mg 0.11 ppm
Mn 0.14 ppm
Mo 0.0038 ppm
Zn 0.03 ppm
dGH 0.02


Macros:
N- 7.5ppm
P- 1.3ppm
K- 4.27ppm
This is the most common method of dosing, Publicly on TPT

As you read more of my posts on this forum, you will find that I frequently mention how every substance added to the tank water gets inside fish. The fact that most of these may not kill the fish does not mean they are not having any detrimental effect. We have been discussing stress in the other thread on ich...these substances can be stressful.

I had this brought home to me in a major way a year or so back. A marine biologist (two actually) suggested that I stop all additives as part of my attempt to track down the root of a particular problem in one tank. When I set out the additives I had been using, both pointed out that we cannot be certain these substances are not doing something. And this was again brought home by Dr. Monks. I subsequently significantly reduced plant additives, and to my surprise the plants did not seem detrimentally affected, and the fish do seem happier.

Freshwater fish have evolved to function best in quite specific environments. Their physiology works within quite restrictive parameters. Parameters here referring to the entire environment including but not limited to water parameters. As soon as you move outside this environment, the fish is likely under stress and may have to start compensating metabolically. It all depends upon the species and the additive of course. It is like high nitrates; no fish that we keep in our aquaria lives in water with nitrate above 1 or at very most 2 ppm. Yet some will say 40 ppm and even higher is not a problem. This makes no sense biologically. Nitrate, like ammonia and nitrite, is a poison to all fish. The degree to which a species can manage will vary, but it is still having to compensate. And that weakens the fish's immune system, and begins to impact the homeostasis. This can have very serious consequences for the fish. There is nothing comparable in terrestrial animals, except perhaps amphibians. The relationship of a fish to the aquatic environment is much more important and critical that that of any land animal to air.

 

[DutchMuch]

mmmhmm

 

[StevenF]

One thing to note about many planted tanks, including all of Tom's, is...there are no fish in them. That is a very different situation than my planted tanks which are fish first, and plants as useful and aesthetic.

Byron I find this surprising. from what I have seen including the video below he does have fish in his tank. Now granted the video is claimed to be of tom barr and his tanks but i have no proof of that. But from what Ihave seen (and read) he appears to have fish in his tanks including the tanks shown.

 

[DutchMuch]

that is his tank, thank you for pointing this out I thought that was a flaw but I didn't question it.

 

[Byron]

I was being general. A few years back (last 5-6) I was active on planted tank forums that Tom also contributed to, and we had discussions about water changes, lighting, etc. Tom was also posting threads on his then-current tanks, and they were basically devoid of fish. It is also something that many others besides myself have noticed with many high-tech set-ups on those forums. Aquatic gardening is often distinct from fish aquaria.

 

[DutchMuch]

because its "aquatic gardening"
Earth without animals wouldn't be as interesting as it would be with them

 

[kty]

Hi again.
OK so I seemed to get the lighting right and most things are going great including multiple births of guppies lol
My new issue is that my new plants are starting to go brown on the edges of the leaves. I did but low light ones. I have done a water test and everything is spot on other than the NO3.( not sure if this is