Plans, Plans…

[JackGulley]

I’ve been toying more and more with the idea of getting a second tank, and the fish I really want to do is Apistos. However, I have some questions.

First off, I can’t decide between a single male and a breeding pair. I really love the idea of breeding fish in general, and I also really like the yellow pattern of the breeding females. But I don’t really understand what I would actually do with the babies. Those of you that have a nuptial pair of cichlids, how often do they breed and what do you do with the babies? Is it a difficult undertaking to deal with rehoming all the babies? Can I have a nuptial pair without expecting them to breed all the time?

Second is the variety of Apisto to pick. I definitely want a red male. So far I like the Double/Triple Red Cacatuoides the best; I love how the black in the fins makes the colors pop. But I’m interested in seeing my other options too. I like fish with loud, high-contrast patterns. I’d love some suggestions for other species to look at!

Third, tankmates! The Apisto(s) would be the centerpiece obviously. I’m feeling either red pencilfish or neons tetras for a dither fish. I’m intrigued by the idea of throwing in some hatchetfish but I’m not sure about that. Do apistos do well with bottom feeders? I already have Pygmy Cories and otos in my current tank, and those would fit nicely in a South American tank. I am planning to use sand, since my other tank is gravel and this limits bottom feeder options. Having a softer-water tank also opens the option of thing like loaches, which I like, but that would break the biotope theme.

Finally, what tank size should I use? I would feel most comfortable with either a 15, a 20 long, or a 20 high; ***maybe*** a 29 gallon. Is a 15 too small? The tank size also obviously affects my stocking choices.

 

[Magnum Man]

there is an amazing color range on Apisto's... it's like pandoras box... you could do one male, & several females

 

[sharkweek178]

Apistos are very sensitive to water quality. So with that in mind, bigger is better. The more volume in a tank, the more stable the parameters are.
I think most would say that longer is better than taller. Fish don't swim up and down as much as they do back and forth.

 

[JackGulley]

Looking at some more varieties, I really like MacMasteri and Hongsloi. I already liked that look in my head but I didn’t know what species it was.

 

[GaryE]

The one male and multiple females is a recipe for disaster. I know a lot of websites and older books repeat it, and believing it is from doing your homework on the fish. But having bred over 30 species of Apistogramma, and had all sorts of set ups once the young grew, it is a myth. Females have their own territories, as much as males.
Writers back in the 50s to 70s, when very few species were known, seemed to have a thing about harems. They were all guys. Go figure.

The females pick their mates. Maybe in very big tanks, a male could be accepted by several females, but so could several males. I even had one female who spawned with two males at the same time, peacefully.

But breeding is not always easy. Many of the more colourful species and morphs need very soft water for egg development. There are a few easier ones, like cacatuoides, but most are demanding. Even if they spawn, the eggs don't always hatch.
Raising them needs a second, good sized aquarium, with a 30-40 gallon being good. Otherwise, the young are stunted. So having a pair, unless you have soft, acidic water from the tap, doesn't mean having successful spawns to raise. The pair would be great parents for 4-6 weeks, but as they get ready for the next batch, the young are supposed to swim away. In a tank, they can't, and they are killed as a threat to the eggs.

 

[JackGulley]

So would keeping a breeding pair naturally result in constant breeding/killing babies if I don’t remove them, or would they not breed unless I induced it with the right conditions?

 

[JackGulley]

Basically I love the idea of having a nuptial pair, but I don’t want to get in over my head if they’re going to breed like rabbits and cause me to have to figure out what to do with all the babies. I wouldn’t mind having a brood to sell to the LFS every now and then, but when we talk abt regular batches of fry and a separate tank to raise them in, I don’t want that much work.

 

[GaryE]

If you have extremely soft water, they will probably breed if the tank is big enough, conditions are right, your maintenance is really good, and they like each other. With moderate hard to hard water, the usual in North America, the eggs will be infertile, or unable to hatch, and you won't have any fry even with spawning.
If you get fry and try to raise them to sellable size in the same tank as the parents, they will die long before then. The stress would probably leave you with one surviving parent, as well. Stores don't want unsexed fish, and they want them with colour. That takes months.
I had a nice Apistogramma from the agassizii group that I wanted fry from. I had a 30 inch, 20 gallon tank. That was a good basic minimum size. My water was pH 7.4, 140 ppm. They spawned 17 times before I got my fry, at which time I had reduced the hardness by 75%. These fish are not guppies. Apisto cacatuoides would breed reduced numbers of fry in my tap, but veijita, mcmasteri, agassizii and hongsloi are soft water Apistos, and if any fry hatched, I'd be surprised.
That is, unless you can surprise us by telling us what the water is like where you are. That's crucial basic knowledge for your project.

 

[GaryE]

It seems Athens Georgia has soft water. So in the right set up, Apistogramma could breed. You couldn't raise any without a proper set up though.

 

[JackGulley]

I don’t have a test strip on hand, but from my memory my tap water is definitely soft enough for soft water fish, but I doubt it’s soft enough for breeding macmasteri. I think I was overthinking it earlier; given my record with platies I’m not in any danger of being overrun by fry lol .

How much can I expect to pay for a m/f pair of MacMasteri?

 

[Magnum Man]

This is one of the best on line sellers

https://dansfish.com/product.detail/6069/Apisto-macmasteri-'Red-Shoulder'-Pair-(1M1F)-(Apistogramma-macmasteri)

This is their current list of apisto’s

https://dansfish.com/catalog.dive/51

 

[GaryE]

The Czechs are breeding a lot of the fancy form Apistogramma in the hobby now, using that soft water that makes their beer so good. They have co-ops that sell centrally, and have pushed wild types out of the hobby. Apistos have become expensive because of that, and the colour forms have moved away from the wild types (which I weirdly prefer).
They sell pairs and in small numbers, while the South American exporters sell what they catch with no concern for the sexes, and with minimum numbers in a bag. I've seen imports where there were 100 males and 10 females - and that leaves the importer with 10 pairs to sell and wasted tank space or expensive feeders. The Czechs triage, and practice selective breeding for colour traits.

I wish we had co-ops like that, and central sellers breeders could work with. It's unfortunate the wild types are being overlooked, as they can be beautiful and the Czechs are breeding for red everythings, but it would be a different hobby if we had our acts together.

 

[JackGulley]

So if I use Dan’s Fish it looks like shipping is 39.99? I guess that’s in addition to the $70 for the fish themselves? I might see if my LFS can order one

 

[gwand]

Dan is expensive but offers quality fish and service. The best I have found. Have not tried Wet Spot yet.

 

[Back in the fold]

From what Gary says it sounds like Apistogramma species are still what they have always been - very difficult expert level dwarf cichlids . I see cacatuoides in a local shop frequently and as much as I’m tempted I pass on them .