Plaese Help Before It Dies

[frazoo]

before anyone thinks i am a total retard i know this is not their natural colouring!!!!!
ok so my first guppies that i have in a 10 gal in my room are getting a wierd disease. first the ends of their big tail get fright red(like blood) please note: THIS IS NOT NATURAL COLOUR and it is eating their tail very slowly.
they eat normal, swim normal and act normal the only thing i have noticesd that i think is bad was that my temp was VERY high i think my heeter may have just started working its butt off. i have a thermometer on my tank but i can not trust it it never changes. so my water was like HOT not boiling but if i opened my lid it would let off very warm humid air.
my ammonia is zero i do 10% changes every week it is a 10 gal with only guppies and one ghost shrimp


i am very worried about these guppies and i would hate it if they had to die please help anyone

 

[Miss Dib Dabs]

You need to check the temp with a thermometre that you know works! And the red streaks are often a sign of Internal bacteria and need to be treated as such.
Do you have a filter in the tank? What is the NitrIte reading? And how many fish are there altogether?
Hugs,
P.

 

[frazoo]

i am working on the thermometer trying to get a new one but i just dont got that much money right now. i also dont have a nitrite kit wich i am also trying to get i will definatly have them by saturday.there are about 11 3\4 grown guppies and about 15 newborn fry wich are comind out today.
thanks man

how do you treat internal bacteria? i have read stickeys and i cant find anything do i gotta get a med? or is there a natural way?

 

[WILDER]

No they have septicemia, need your location for a med.

 

[frazoo]

raleigh north carolina (USA)

 

[tttnjfttt]

Thermomiters are relatively cheap, a few dollars at walmart. It is worth the investment.

As for a cheap water test, take a water sample to the LPS, most will test your water for free. However, i do recomend buying a good test kit when you can afford it.

As for an antibioitc, i would recomend using either kanamyicin (aka kanacyn), tetracycline (watch out for the filter) or a combo of maracyn and maracyn 2.

 

[Tolak]

Oxytetracycline hydrochloride is one of the best meds out there for septicemia, which it sounds like your fish have. Higher temps tend to make bacterial problems take off, try to keep the temp as cool as possible.

Many meds suggest 25% to 50% water changes daily. This by itself helps to keep the fish's environment cleaner, which is needed with most ill fish.

 

[tttnjfttt]

even though higher temps increases the bacterial growth, raising the temperature will make the antibiotics more effective and kill the bacterial infection faster.

There was recently a large discussion about this http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=130177&st=16

 

[Tolak]

Very interesting link, surprised I didn't catch that one, thanks!

Hemmoragic septicemia can spread quickly, really do a number on a tank of fish practically overnight, it's a nasty one. While I do agree with the heat increasing the fish's metabolism, making the meds get to the problem & do their thing faster, you are also increasing the metabolism of a pretty wicked infection, making it do a number on the fish quicker. It's a tough balance, I've treated fish with hexamita, a slower moving parasitic infection, by turning up the heat with meds with excellent results. From what I've been seeing columnaris, which that link refers to, can either be a slower moving infection, or one that moves through the tank pretty quickly. Turning up the heat for the slower moving type would make sense, I would be a little hesitant to turn up the heat on a rapidly moving infection.

I may be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last. Sounds like the old "Handbook Of Drugs And Chemicals Used In The Treatment Of Fish Diseases" is tonight's bedtime read.

 

[steelhealr]

From a medical standpoint, many antibiotics function by interfering with protein synthesis. They bind to either the 50S or 30S ribosomal units and, trying not to get too technical, stopping the growth of bacteria by stopping the DNA 'from being read'. Some stop bacterial cell wall production.

Increasing temperature, in most animals WILL increase metabolism and circulation and thus, distribution of antibiotic. Although I can see how, in an untreated tank, increasing tank temps could improve the culture medium for bacteria, I can't see how it would 'increase infection rate' if the fish's tissues are saturated in an antibiotic that the bacteria is sensitive to.

Although fish are not humans, all human infections are treated by added warmth. In fact, we develop fever to help fight infection. If it were my tank, I would increase temps on all fish with infections ONLY if the fish is quarantined and the entire hospital tank is treated/saturated with antibiotics or antiparasitics. JMO. SH

 

[Tolak]

Per Nelson Herwig's "Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals Used in the Treatment of Fish Diseases";

"Physiotherapy of fish diseases is obtained primarily through the use of heat, i.e. raising the temperature to speed up the life cycle of pathogenic organisms so that a drug may act on a particular stage of its life cycle. Conversely, lowering the temperature to slow down the life cycle of a pathinogenic agent until more appropriate treatment can take effect may also be an important type of therapy."

My question is how do you know when heat is an asset or a liability? I do understand how heat is effective, as well as a natural body response, to infections in mammals, but is it as definitely effective in fish with their less effective capillary system of circulation powered by a less efficient 2-chambered heart? Heat has an effect for the entire fish's body in a very short amount of time, while their circulatory system, being rather inefficient, is trying to deliver a drug that is being administered through the fish's tank water, a relatively inefficient delivery system.

You obviously have some sort of professional training in the medical field sh; I have no such training, just like to read a lot. I could see how heat would be an asset if the medication were administered orally; I've also read that intraperitoneal injection is even more effective, though it is something, luckily, that I have never needed to consider. Knowledge of medical treatment for fish is tough to find, besides Herwig’s book, which mainly covers pharmacology; Dieter Undergasser’s “Handbook of Fish Diseases” is about all that is published that is worth anything.

It’s tough to find people who have an understanding of the medial field as well as aquatics. I’m looking forward to your response, and the opportunity to learn something.

 

[tttnjfttt]

Per Nelson Herwig's "Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals Used in the Treatment of Fish Diseases";

"Physiotherapy of fish diseases is obtained primarily through the use of heat, i.e. raising the temperature to speed up the life cycle of pathogenic organisms so that a drug may act on a particular stage of its life cycle. Conversely, lowering the temperature to slow down the life cycle of a pathinogenic agent until more appropriate treatment can take effect may also be an important type of therapy."

Here is my take on this. The temperature on the tank depends on if you have been able to add meds. basically that if you do not have a suitable med, specifically for a bacterial infection, lowering the temperature slows the bacterial growth until you can get the correct medicine.

When you have the right medicine in it, increasing the temperature increases the rate of individual cells metabolism and the rate they can reproduce and make protines. What happens with antibiotics is they get into the cell and mess up the process through which protines are made, which stopps the bacteria from reproducing. At higher temperatures, the antibiotics are taken into the cells faster, thefore destroying the bacteria faster.

I don't think the 2 chamber heart plays a big difference. the meds will still be pumped through the body. The reason i think this can be generalized for mamals is because of the cellular similarities, which is how the antibioitcs work.

 

[Tolak]

That's just it, when you have the right medicine. Fish diseases are difficult to diagnose, there isn't one cure for all infections. A good example is a gram positive/gram negative situation. You really can't be positive what you are treating unless you have access to a microscope & gram stains. If you treat for the one you think is right, and you are wrong, you have just helped the bacteria by turning up the heat.

I understand how kanamycin, tetracycline, & others affect protein synthesis, but not all bacteria are affected the same way. I know turning up the heat is a benefit, but only when you have the correct medication.

The circulatory system does have something to do with it, when coupled with the medication being added to the tank water. Lets say you get sick, you have a fever, & you go to the doctor. The doctor prescribes an oral antibiotic. After a week you are getting worse instead of better. They do blood test to determine the problem, put you in the hospital for a couple of days for I.V. antibiotics. Having a much more advanced circulatory system, and knowing exactly what the infection is thanks to blood tests, those I.V. antibiotics work fast, and you get well in a short amount of time.

Now lets say your doctor decided to treat you like a fish. You get some pills, the doctor says to wrap up in lots of clothes, heat will help you. After a week you are worse, so the doctor prescribes a different antibiotic. Another week goes by, you are worse still. Good ‘ol doc sawbones prescribes yet another pill. You are getting the wrong medication for your infection, being administered through an ineffective route. Even if the third time is the right medication, it isn’t going to do as good a job unless you get it I.V. But you are being treated like a fish, so no I.V. for you. By now that fever has gone up to the point of permanent brain damage, your chances of a full recovery are pretty slim.

We are dealing with fish, not people, so there are some differences, as well as similarities. There are probably stacks of books worth of knowledge I’m missing here since I have no formal medical background. I still don’t see how heat can be considered an asset to the fish’s recovery unless you are certain that you are treating with the right medication. Determining that medication is the difficult part.

 

[steelhealr]

The diagnosis and medical treatment of fish disease, IMO, is one of the most difficult and challenging areas of aquarism. Unless you have a fish veterinarian next door doing gram stains and necropsies, chances are that you will rely on either a forum like TFF or a photograph from a text/the internet to come up with a diagnosis for your ailing fish.

The treatment of bacterial and parasitic infections in humans, as mentioned by Tolak, is done by examination and laboratory tests. Elevated white blood cell counts, positive blood, wound or stool cultures, tests for ova and parasties all help to confirm the type of infection or infestation. These don't exist in the average aquarium home. Treatment, though frowned upon, is usually going to be a 'shotgun' approach or trial and error. Unless you have a vet who specializes in ichthyology, this method is all that we have in our armamentarium unless you call or email an 'expert'. At best, this will most likely be a judgment call.

With regards to bacterial infections in fish, it is my opinion that, as Tolak states, this is not a heavily studied area. Some principles extrapolate from humans:

• most bacterial infections in fish are either gram + or gram - with gram - being most common
• selecting the correct antibiotic can be difficult if you don't know the strain
• any bacterium can show resistance to a particular antibiotic
• once treatment is started, you should administer the correct dosage at the correct inerval and for the correct length of time

Antibiotics are adminstered either by:
1) injection: rare and usually unavailable to most home aquarists
2) food: can be difficult since fish usually stop eating when ill but is the best route of administration
3) bath: most commonly used but requires higher dosages, my not obtain good internal levels (mostly topical), can destroy the biologic filter if a hospital tank is not used

Obviously, I won't go into what we all know...that water quality and stress are the major contributors to onset of disease in fish.

After all this pontification, finally, with regards to heat. I am presently researching this and there is little data available. If I find a reference, I will print it here. However, references I have found seem supportive of my theories as discussed above and recommend added heat, particularly with regards to parasitic infection and columnaris. There is very little information on the pharmacokinetics of antibiotics in fish.

Very wordy, I know, but, JMO for those. I hope this helps. SH