Photoperiod For High Lighting

RickT

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Hi all

I am currently running a 30g tank with 4 wpg lighting, 30ppm co2 and EI dosing (KNO3, KH2PO4 & trace). The tank is heavily planted and the plants are growing like weeds and pearling - for the last few hours of the lighting period my tank looks like its filled with lemonade! However I am still having trouble with hair algae and this seems most prevalent in the areas of high light (centre of the tank near the surface). I am wondering whether the issue is that I have my lights on for 10 hours and this is too much, considering the light intensity.

So...with high light intensity, should I be reducing the photoperiod?

Thanks

Rick
 
People seem to have 4hour on 2 hour of 4 hour on 12 hour off periods(as mentiond by someone else).See if that helps.
 
I think the siesta period has been decribed by many as a myth.

I just do:
2 hours @ 0.7WPG
8 hours @ 2.8WPG
2 hours @ 0.7WPG

with moonlight on through the night and morning.
 
CO2, CO2 and CO2.

Is this a DIY CO2?

You need at add CO2 so that there is 30ppm or there abouts all day, not just the latter 1/2 of the lighting cycle.

High CO2 between 0-4 hours of light is the most important stage of CO2 dosing.
So you can start dosing CO2 about 1 hour prior to the lights coming on.

Then shut off CO2 at about 1 hour before they shut off.

Hair algae tends to be due to low poor CO2.
Folks have issues with measurement of CO2 as well.
Some might have a good KH/pH relationship/measurement that works, whereas another person might have poor test methods/non carbonate alkalinity, took only one measurement at the end, not the start of the day for CO2 etc.

You need to know you have enough CO2 for the 10 hours, not just one time point.
Folks insist to me all the time they have good CO2, then..............they check early, they do not, it was only at the latter half of the day.

Good flow through a CO2 reactor, or flow by a diffuser will help mixing better.
Adding high CO2 levels only during the day allows you to add more with far less risk to fish, you can add it right before the lights come on to make sure there's plenty of CO2 from the start.

There is a lot more to CO2 than one single measure, it involves temporal issues, 24/7 vs 10 hours per day effects on fish, O2 production, current, filter and flow dynamics, CO2 gas mist, good reference methods to get a good measure on CO2.

Unlike light, nutrients, which are much easier to measure and dose, CO2 is very empheral.
The range can vary 20ppm in a single hour.

NO3? About 0.1-0.2 NO3 ppm per hour at most. Not much compared to CO2...........

I have been inducing hair algae lately to 4 tanks. These tanks had no issues prior(good plant growth). I just shut off the CO2 in two and turn it down in the others. Each tank has the CO2 come on about 1 hour prior. Took about 1 to 2 weeks.
I've since turned the CO2 back on to normal levels, about 30-35ppm.
I use a KH reference and then a pH meter.
This yields no interference due to tank water and allows accuracy to about 1ppm CO2.

When this was done, the hair algae has stopped growing.

While it does not show what happened in your tank, it is very suggestive that CO2 declines will cause hair algae, two species Spirogyra and Cladophora in particular. Carbon is linked to NH4 and NO3 metabolism, P, S, K+ etc.

So the downstream affects can be diverse and problematic.
Serious long term CO2 issues induce BBA, can exacerbate GW, GSA, Staghorn in conjunction with input cycling of waste like NH4 from fish food/feces/substrate sources/gravel upheavals etc.

If you want to look for cause in algae, the CO2 is something that must not be brushed aside. It accounts for most of the algae issues, about 95% of of them I've seen and addressed.

Note: if you reduced the luight, say to 2 w/gal, the algae and issues will go away.
More light = more CO2 demand.

So if you are not quite able to get enough CO2 in there, this will help.

Do not do siestas, they don;t work and they do not help.
The only reason they might help: it gives the poor underpowered CO2 system to build back up enough CO2.

Plants and algae are similar in the light responses, with the advantage going to the algae, not the plants. They are smaller and faster in terms of uptake, lack any transport system requirements, demand far less nutrients than plants over all. They do tend to light higher light than plants as they have less demand for nutrients, light is the only thing that limits their growth in most cases absent of plants. Plants remove some of the signalling cues, namely variation in CO2 and NH4, espeically under higher light.

But if the plants do not have enough CO2, then they will not remove enough/as much NH4, not produce enough/as much O2, etc.

These things are linked.


Regards,
Tom Barr
 
now that is an answer /\

thank you, very imformative post, and has made me decide not to seista my lamps,

one question- do you think it is vital to shut off the co2 at night?

jake
 
Well, think about fish.....then think about plants........
Do fish need high levels of CO2 when the O2 levels are at their lowest?
Nope.

Plants need high CO2 at night?
Nope. They only use CO2 when the lights are on.

Folks carry on and bemoan CO2 loss due to high current and surface movement, why are they not crying about the waste at night for 14 hours?

Seems hypocritical to me.

Fish health? A long chronic high level CO2 exposure with the lowest O2(pre dawn) is not good for O2/CO2 exchange for them. High CO2+ high O2 is another matter.

Amano said is was "Taboo" in Japan to add CO2 at night when I spoke to him, he has never really said more than this.

I have always done it that way myself.
But I had other reasons: the fish stress 24/7 for one, wasting CO2 another and the third reason I can think that's reasonable: it allows me to add more CO2 during the day when the plants need high CO2 the most with much less chance of gassing the fish.

So I can add more CO2 than anyone maintaining a stable 24/7 level and not hurt the fish.
It also purges any built up levels of CO2 that might build over several days, or I neglect something etc.

I've never lost a fish due to CO2 over dosing, I've gassed them to the surface, rarely, but no long term issues done. Few that have done as many CO2 tanks can say that.

I do not like placing fish in bad under sized tanks with poor conditions.
You can still apply high CO2/good nutrients etc without stressing them out.

I really find what many folks say outright nutty about saving CO2, not adding this or that due to the fish, then not going after those that suggest adding CO2 all night long is fine for fish.

Some clown got the idea that pH stabilization (Via CO2 injection) is more important than breathing for fish...........I do not think this has ever been shown to be the case in any study.

But off hand, I'd beg to differ and they would have to show/provide some fairly good evidence and reasoning to address that issue.

And not no "well it says it some hobbyists book that pH change causes fish stress..........", that does not cut it. What causes the pH change? KH change or CO2 change?

You can add lots of CO2, then do a large water change with tap, say 50-90% even, the pH changes 1 full unit or so, fish are fine.

Try the same procedure and change the pH one full unit with baking soda as fast as the CO2 treatment= dead fish.

So is it pH, or the KH change that's the issue?
Folks do weekly large water changes and have for many years on planted tanks.

I'll let you figure out your own conclusion.

Regards,
Tom Barr












Regards,
Tom Barr
 
i take that to be turn it off at night ;)

so if were turning it off for the night and bringing it on an hr before the lights come back on, do we need to up the doseage of co2 to compensate?

or would the tank provide enough c02 itself that we maintain the levels as previous?

i myself am just starting my tank, i have had the c02 on for 1bps from 8pm last night and its still on, im trying to get a good level in the water before all the plants and light go in to the tank, i also put the filter of my other tank onto it at about 8pm too.

will i be ok dosing overnight for the first week to establish the tank and plants(without fish) and then switch to an on/off method when the fish go in?

jake

sorry for the hijack but i figred the alge question had been solved
 
Regards,
Tom Barr

I did not know that Tom Barr was a member of the forum... Bar Report...

Cheers...

He is also the world's authority on EI and all-round planted tank guru. I am a newbie in comparison.

We are lucky to have him here, especially as I'm not as active these days.

For the record, I have my CO2 on a timer, "on" 1 hour before lights on, and "off" 1 hour before lights off.
 
Thanks for the detailed responses Tom. It is extremely useful having someone with your experience in this forum.
Cheers
Rick
 
Yes, you'll be fine without fish, crank it up etc.


But.............

There is a counter argument to this adding it only during the day.
A well run 24/7 tank can also have no issues with fish health, many also use CO2/pH controllers 24/7 as well.

Often, this works best with lower light.
The same can be said for any fertilization method.

It also works best with decent surface current/movement etc.
Many folks add CO2 24/7 without issues as well, and it's simpler to boot.
But some have troubles or have killed their fish also doing it this way.
I think there is an increased risk associated with 24/7 dosing.

So rather than setting your self up for potential trouble, and setting the fish up for something that cannot be good as "less CO2 for most of the 24 period", I think the little bit of a timer/solenoid etc is a simple one time cost that will pay for itself and reduce the risk.

Basically, is the trade off worth the risk, cost, hassle etc
I think for most, it most certainly does make sense.

Regards,
Tom Barr
 

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