Ph Levels - How High Is Too High?

[mbpted]

I've done my best to keep my water levels stable and consistent:
Ammonia stable at 0ppm
Nitrite stable at 0ppm
Nitrate around 20ppm

But my pH is up to 8.2ppm using the API High Range pH test. The low range pH test was always a dark 7.6 when I compared it to the color chart, so I tried the high range to see if there was a big difference and there was.

The problem is, that even with water acclimation any new fish I add to my tank dies within a day.

I have two Tetras - a Black Neon and a White Skirt.

I need to add more fish so they have schools to be happy, and it's not working. The last attempt was the other day, and I acclimated two new Black Neons to the existing water by first floating the bag for about 20 minutes, then slowly replacing the fish store water in the bag, with water from my tank every 10 minutes for about 40 minutes.

I've read that Tetras prefer lower, more acidic pH levels. However, I've also read that keeping the pH level stable is more important than making any adjustments. If the pH levels in my tank is different than the store water, that even with the acclimation, could it have shocked the new fish to death? (the same thing happened a couple weeks ago when I tried to add two new skirt tetras)

I could try a slower method of acclimation, but if the pH is too high, maybe I should gradually reduce it to a more neutral level. Then try again.

If I do, what's the best way? I've read about driftwood floating in the tank, or peat moss in my filter system. I'm sure there are chemicals as well. I don't want to harm my existing fish, they seem to be thriving although a bit lonely. So whatever I do, if I do anything, I'll probably need to do it slowly and gradually.

I'm trying to do my research, but I'm still doing a lot of guessing. Any suggestions would be welcome.

 

[BerryAttack]

well usually your goal of a pH level is at 7.0

i use this to control my pH levels. Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Liquid pH Control-4 oz you can buy it at petsmart. or other pet stores. i use 1ml for every gallon.

now when adding new fish you float the bag on the water for about 15 mins and then add the fish in but NEVER add the water from the bag into the tank.. never know what diseases might be in the water from the pet store. that's how i add my fish and it works great. they usually never die. i think that you are leaving the fish in the bag for far too long. so when you get the fish float the bag on the water 15mins then add a cup of your aquarium water to the bag.. let it sit for 2-3mins then put the fish in the water, and pitch the water in the bag in the garden or something.

and a trick that i do with my new fish is that i feed then when they are in the water after i pitch the water in the bag.. and boom they act normal and not scared.

now maybe the place where you are buying the fish are carrying unhealthy fish. try a different pet place and see how that works.

try that and see if that works.

 

[jb1997mcd]

I think it is hard to say why you are having problems at this point. The ph in my tanks fluctuates from 7.6 to 8.0 and I have tetras and have had them for several years.

From what I have read I would try to avoid using chemicals to adjust ph because this seems to be a short term fix. Peat moss and drift wood seem to be better ways to lower the ph.

How long has your tank been cycled? Have you asked the place where you purchase your fish what their ph is?

I am sure some other folks would come along with some other suggestions.

One question Berry - I have read that 7.0 is actually not optimal, but you would rather have slightly acidic or alkaline water. I am not sure but this is what I have read?

 

[raptorrex]

I've done my best to keep my water levels stable and consistent:
Ammonia stable at 0ppm
Nitrite stable at 0ppm
Nitrate around 20ppm

But my pH is up to 8.2ppm using the API High Range pH test. The low range pH test was always a dark 7.6 when I compared it to the color chart, so I tried the high range to see if there was a big difference and there was.

The problem is, that even with water acclimation any new fish I add to my tank dies within a day.

I have two Tetras - a Black Neon and a White Skirt.

I need to add more fish so they have schools to be happy, and it's not working. The last attempt was the other day, and I acclimated two new Black Neons to the existing water by first floating the bag for about 20 minutes, then slowly replacing the fish store water in the bag, with water from my tank every 10 minutes for about 40 minutes.

I've read that Tetras prefer lower, more acidic pH levels. However, I've also read that keeping the pH level stable is more important than making any adjustments. If the pH levels in my tank is different than the store water, that even with the acclimation, could it have shocked the new fish to death? (the same thing happened a couple weeks ago when I tried to add two new skirt tetras)

I could try a slower method of acclimation, but if the pH is too high, maybe I should gradually reduce it to a more neutral level. Then try again.

If I do, what's the best way? I've read about driftwood floating in the tank, or peat moss in my filter system. I'm sure there are chemicals as well. I don't want to harm my existing fish, they seem to be thriving although a bit lonely. So whatever I do, if I do anything, I'll probably need to do it slowly and gradually.

I'm trying to do my research, but I'm still doing a lot of guessing. Any suggestions would be welcome.

messin with the water parameters, is a world of pain for little gain.
water has an amazing tendency to "buffer" itself back to its original, whatever you add to it.

take some advice from many many experienced keepers, keep fish that suite your water.

if you wish to go the "whole Hog" and reconstitute the water with RO, and propitiatory mineral preparations, you will have some luck.
apart from that. i refer you to line three of this post!

 

[Moby-Krib]

messin with the water parameters, is a world of pain for little gain.
water has an amazing tendency to "buffer" itself back to its original, whatever you add to it.

take some advice from many many experienced keepers, keep fish that suite your water.

if you wish to go the "whole Hog" and reconstitute the water with RO, and propitiatory mineral preparations, you will have some luck.
apart from that. i refer you to line three of this post!

True story!!
Modifying ph, especially if trying to take it down, Even by highly experienced keepers eventually leads to some heartbreak.
pushing ph up is much more forgiving but not without pitfalls.
Use of a PH miracle in a bottle will get you to that heartbreak much quicker.

 

[Fintastic!]

My ph is 8.2 and I have had few problems. Raptorrex is right. I wouldnt try to change it, try working with what you have and find suitable fish. Good luck, I know it can be frustrating but stick with it!

 

[mbpted]

Thanks everyone for the responses and advise.

In response to jb1997mcd - my research tells me that 7.0 ppm is "Neutral" pH - in between acidic and alcaline. 8.2 is more alcaline. I didn't think to ask about pH levels, I was more concerned about Ammonia - which I think caused my initial fish disaster that I've been trying all summer to recover from. I'm starting to think these two surviving Tetras are not just ordinary Tetras - they're Super Tetras!

But if jb1997mcd and Fintastic! can keep tetras alive in higher pH levels, I'm going to do my best to do the same.

Oh - and I did buy the last two attempts from two different stores to see if there was any difference in store quality. But since both attempts were unsuccessful, it's hard to say. I had to shop around for the specific species because only one of them had the Black Neons. Neither have White Skirts at the moment, although one has a stock of Black Skirt Tetras. Would they school with a single white skirt? (that may be the subject for another topic)

BerryAttacks suggestion for the acclimation was the same as the saleswoman at the store, but I was reading several articles about different acclimation methods, and I tried the one that seemed both the easiest and most practical for my set up. I was very careful not to introduce any water from the store into my tank, However, since the pH levels may be different (and I'll check next time) I think trying a slower acclimation might be a little safer. I'll feed them right away to see if that makes them more comfortable.

And I'll look for more fish that can handle a higher pH level.

 

[mbpted]

Progress: (sort of)

Last week I went back to the store and brought home two tetras - one black neon and one black skirt.

When I got home I did a very long slow acclimation:
20 minutes floating the bag to even the temperature.
Then I put the bag in a container that was close to the bags footstep. Cut the top off, and started replacing water from the store with water from my tank. 1/4 cup every 10 minutes. I did this for 2 hours before I sped it up to 1/2 cup and reduced the time between. When I was down to 5 minutes between water changes, I netted the fish into the tank.

No, they didn't like it. I think it stressed them a bit, especially when the measuring cup went into the bag, but store bags aren't very big, and I wanted to make sure they really got used to the water. (pH levels from the store are 7.0ppm compared to the 8.2ppm in my tank) I didn't just pour the tank water into the bag, but gently let the water mix.

When they were introduced to the tank, they immediately sought out their partner: black neon to black neon and black skirt to white skirt. They swam, ate, and seemed to thrive. They also seemed to prefer the light on rather than off, so I put them on a regular lights on/lights off schedule. (For the first couple days, the black skirt would be listing at the bottom of the tank until the light went on and then it would "wake up" and start swimming with it's partner.)

Every night I would get home and check and for 3 days all seemed well. On day 4 the black neon was dead at the bottom of the tank.

But black skirt was still going strong - and is still going strong on day 7. I'm not sure what happened with the black neon, but it did exhibit strange behavior - or at least it seemed strange. After a day or so, it no longer hung out with it's counterpart. Although the skirt tetras continued to swim together, the black neons eventually retreated to opposite sides of the tank, finding their own corners to hide.

The newer one was much larger than the older one, (by about 1/4 of an inch) so maybe he was much older? When he died, the other, smaller neon (the original) started to come out of his corner and swim with the skirts. (odd)

Anyway, I'm going to keep trying. Limited success is still success - of a sort. If anyone has more thoughts, please bring it on. Thanks.

 

[r.d.bid]

Keep us updated mbpted.

I've got high ph water also and have given up on trying to change it. The fish that I do have in the tank are now used to 8.0 ph, but I've yet to add in any new fish.

 

[mbpted]

Keep us updated mbpted.

I've got high ph water also and have given up on trying to change it. The fish that I do have in the tank are now used to 8.0 ph, but I've yet to add in any new fish.

I'm not going to try to decrease my pH levels, but continue to acclimate any new fish to my water conditions. (all other levels, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate are okay) I'll swing by the store this evening and bring home a couple more black neons, and maybe one more skirt. I'll report back in a week on how they do.

Thanks.

 

[delta]

I also a high pH of 8 and I have all kinds of tetras which seem fine. My local LFSs also have pH of 8 in their tanks so all the fish I buy from them are already used to that high a pH. I would have thought that your own LFS should also have the same pH as you unless they tamper with their water.

 

[fluttermoth]

It might be worth drip acclimatising them; it's much less shocking to fish than pouring water in at intervals.

 

[mbpted]

I also a high pH of 8 and I have all kinds of tetras which seem fine. My local LFSs also have pH of 8 in their tanks so all the fish I buy from them are already used to that high a pH. I would have thought that your own LFS should also have the same pH as you unless they tamper with their water.

I thought of that, but the store I bought the latest batch of fish are using filtered water whereas I'm treating my tap water. That could be what's creating the difference. At least that's my guess.

It might be worth drip acclimatising them; it's much less shocking to fish than pouring water in at intervals.

Yes. If this current batch doesn't make it, I'll try that next.

 

[mbpted]

It might be worth drip acclimatising them; it's much less shocking to fish than pouring water in at intervals.

Drip acclimation was very easy and seemed to allow the new fish to join the tank in confort.

That was before I noticed a rise in Ammonia earlier this week; trying to get used to giving more food to more fish, I think I was feeding them too much. But although I tried to add just bits at a time, some days they'd gobble everything I put in the tank the moment it hit the water, and other days they'd float aimlessly and watch as the food drifting to the bottom of the tank. (this should be a subject of a separate thread)

In any case, because there was an increase in ammonia, I did a large water change - which reduced the ammonia level - but I think it was too much of a shock to the newest fish. Both died, but they lasted 2 and 1 week respectively. Other than that, the water levels have remained steady. No change in pH, Nitrite, or Nitrate.

One thing I tried to do was remove some of the "ornaments" that my daughter had added to the tank. She had found a sea shell, and a couple stones at a near by beach - I had boiled and washed them thoroughly - using both bleach and vinegar. However, during my research, I read that sea shells can be bad for fresh water tanks and can change the chemical levels in the water. I wondered if that might have been the caused of my high pH. But after removing them, and doing a couple or regular weekly water changes, there wasn't any difference.

I hope I'm learning more about keeping a tank - I just wish I didn't kill so many fish in the process.