Ph Fluctuations, New Tank, Not Cycled, With Fish

[librarygirl]

First I apologize for all of the questions; I hope someday I'm as knowledgeable as the others on here and will be able to give back!

Short history:
new tank, almost 4 weeks (did upgrade half-way through from a 5 gal to a 12 gal, levels were the same in both tanks); have a filter and BioWheel and 4" air stone
Temp set to 76, thermometer shows 76-77 (fahrenheit)
4 GloFish (didn't know about cycling when I got them)
I've been changing water daily, sometimes twice. Mostly 2-3 gal changes, sometimes 5-6 gals (treated with Prime each time)
I had been testing with the API kit once daily after the water changes; levels were ammonia 0-<0.25 (usually some tint of green but didn't seem to match the full 0.25 very often, although the last few tests are showing a full 0.25 so maybe it's finally trying to cycle), nitrates/nitrites 0 , ph would fluctuates between 6.0-7.8, sometimes hard to tell the differences between the teal colors

This week I decided to test the water before water changes also. I also tested tap water at 15 min, 12 hour and 24 hour intervals (both treated and untreated).

Both the treated and untreated start with a ph very dark blue off the chart; after 12 hours, it settles to 7.0-7.2; after 24 hours it shoots back up to off the chart.

Aquarium water fluctuates as well and I can't seem to find a pattern. I'm attaching a pic of the Excel file log. (sorry the font is a bit small, had to adjust the size for upload; if not readable let me know I can reconfigure)

I'm worried about what these fluctuations may be doing to my fish (they seem ok, but I don't want to take chances) but am new to this so have no idea how to stabilize. I usually add Prime to the fresh water and then put right in the tank, maybe I should let it stand?

Also it's been a month and no nitrates/nitrites yet. Am I doing something wrong?!

Help?

 

[clgklg]

How about your filter/media....is it still the same one from when you started the tank a month ago or did you have to start a new one when you got the 12 gallon? Also, the decor ~ have those been cleaned at all?

Oh! and do you siphon change water?

Katie

 

[librarygirl]

How about your filter/media....is it still the same one from when you started the tank a month ago or did you have to start a new one when you got the 12 gallon? Also, the decor ~ have those been cleaned at all?

Oh! and do you siphon change water?

Katie

HI, thanks for replying!

I do siphon the gravel when I change water. I've heard conflicting reports as to whether to vacuum the gravel when the tank is cycling, so every few days I'll vacuum the gravel thoroughly where it gets sucked up into the siphone; the other times I'll lightly run the siphon over the gravel to get any bits of food and stuff on top.

I do rinse one or two pieces in the old tank water (mostly the ones showing green algae spots on them) but I haven't cleaned the others; I think 2 decorations made it over from the old tank (which was set up for all of 2 weeks before I upgraded) and the rest are new (had to fill the extra space lol)

The media from the old tank was half the size than the one for the new tank and I couldn't fit it in the space. So I placed it on top of the current filter. The other tank was only up for 2 weeks before I upgraded so it wasn't cycled yet although it was starting to form greenish spots. The current filter is looking the same.

________________________

updated numbers:

Yesterday, Friday, 4/29/11:
1:30 PM - ph 7.2, ammonia <0.25
5 PM - fed fish again (flakes)
6:30 PM - ph 6.4 (um dropped quite a bit from 1:30 pm), ammonia 0.25 (really wanted to do a pwc here but resisted)
8 PM - ph 7.6 (aaaaahhhhhhhh, how can it jump that much in 90 mins?!), ammonia 0.25
Did a 1 gal pwc

This morning I only tested ammonia at 2:30 AM (I know, I was worried it being too high): which was 0.25. I did a 4 gal water change

This morning at 9:00 AM: ph was off the chart, a very dark blue. High range ph 7.4; ammonia still at 0.25, no nitrates/nitrites

I think today I'm going to get a new API kit in case mine is defective; I'll also see if they have a wide range ph kit.

Any other ideas?

 

[clgklg]

Whew...where to start. As far as the PH level lowering, that is a good thing. It's part of your cycle, when the ammonia cycle begins at a, lets say 8PH it is ten times more toxic than a reading of 7PH, so even though you have more Ammonia in your tank (.25 rather than <.25) its a different 'strand' of ammonia when its at a low PH so it's much less toxic. As for your PH, even though it's important it is not nearly important as your GH and KH readings. (they come in a cheap test kit together) these readings for glo-fish should be 3-4 drops. As far as the Glo-fish (genetically altered Zebras), them being in there while the tank is cycling is not good for them but the zebra Danio is an extremely hardy fish, I've even heard people state that could live in a cup of coffee (of course thats a bit of an exageration, but you get the point) I actually started my tank with Glo's and they all lived 3-4 years. The best thing is to keep doing your water changes. You seem like the type of person that believes "I don't know" does not exist as an answer to any question and You really seem to be doing everything right. So, the only thing I can recommend is 1.) Make sure your food has no more than 45% crude protein, fish can not process over loads of protein so that is directly deposited into the water with out the body breaking it down, and protein creates excess ammonia,(maybe even do a little research on Zebras to see what their protein recommendations are) and 2.) Instead of placing your old media on top of your new one, just squeeze it out onto your new one. Although its a slim chance, your old media could be blocking your filter from breaking down your bacteria properly. Hang in there, my tank actually went through an ammonia spike recently and it's 5 years established, due to a blocked media. All my fish survived and my cory's actually spawned and now I'm a proud parent of lots of fry!

Good luck!
If Im missing anything let me know and I'll see if I can help further

Katie

 

[librarygirl]

Whew...where to start. As far as the PH level lowering, that is a good thing. It's part of your cycle, when the ammonia cycle begins at a, lets say 8PH it is ten times more toxic than a reading of 7PH, so even though you have more Ammonia in your tank (.25 rather than <.25) its a different 'strand' of ammonia when its at a low PH so it's much less toxic. As for your PH, even though it's important it is not nearly important as your GH and KH readings. (they come in a cheap test kit together) these readings for glo-fish should be 3-4 drops. As far as the Glo-fish (genetically altered Zebras), them being in there while the tank is cycling is not good for them but the zebra Danio is an extremely hardy fish, I've even heard people state that could live in a cup of coffee (of course thats a bit of an exageration, but you get the point) I actually started my tank with Glo's and they all lived 3-4 years. The best thing is to keep doing your water changes. You seem like the type of person that believes "I don't know" does not exist as an answer to any question and You really seem to be doing everything right. So, the only thing I can recommend is 1.) Make sure your food has no more than 45% crude protein, fish can not process over loads of protein so that is directly deposited into the water with out the body breaking it down, and protein creates excess ammonia,(maybe even do a little research on Zebras to see what their protein recommendations are) and 2.) Instead of placing your old media on top of your new one, just squeeze it out onto your new one. Although its a slim chance, your old media could be blocking your filter from breaking down your bacteria properly. Hang in there, my tank actually went through an ammonia spike recently and it's 5 years established, due to a blocked media. All my fish survived and my cory's actually spawned and now I'm a proud parent of lots of fry!

Good luck!
If Im missing anything let me know and I'll see if I can help further

Katie

Thank you so much Katie! And congrats on your fry!

Question for you (and anyone else who has successfully cycled with fish): how long did the cycle take? Did you do large water changes every day? It's been a month for me and no nitrates/nitrites at all. I've been doing pwc 1-2x daily, usually between 3 and 7 gals at a time. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

Well the ph was coming down but then it shot back up last night from 6.4 at 6:30 PM to 7.6 at 8 PM. Today I tested before a large water change, ph was 7.6 (light blue). I then did a 70% pwc for 0.25 ammonia. I just tested again after two hours and the ph is still at 7.6 and the high range is at 8.3 (I did change some decorations etc). Ammonia still looks like it's at 0.25 or close to, so I'm not sure why that large of a water change wouldn't reduce it (again, I did move some stuff around including substrate so maybe things got disturbed)? I just don't want to hurt the fish but I can't seem to get the ammonia to go down (thankfully it isn't over 0.25) and if I could get some nitrates/nitrites I'd throw a party.

I went to PetCo to buy a new kit and talked to an employee there. He seemed disturbed that PetSmart told me that I could add fish without cycling my tank. He even said a 12 gal is kind of small for Glofish (told him I know that now, but Petsmart didn't tell me that and I'm going to upgrade again at some point). Anyway since he seemed knowledeable I asked him about the ph situation. He recommended Neutral Regulator. I bought it but haven't used it yet. Anyone have experience with this? Is it OK to use if my ph keeps fluctuating?

I have to find a gh and kh kit, didn't see one there, might have to go online to get it. They had strips that tested alkalinity and hardness; maybe I should get those for now until I can get a better kit.

Thanks again!

 

[clgklg]

I do not recommend using any type of PH adjusters. If you start using them you have to use them on every water change, and personally I think that would be more stressful to your fish. Keep in mind your PH is always going to fluxuate. Just the light alone is going to change it during the day. I know yours seems rather drastic, fish can thrive (glo fish) in anything between 6-8. You need to keep doing the water changes, maybe not as often as you are right now. Another thing that can naturally buffer the water is drift wood, that will help balance out the PH slowly, which is what is healthiest for your fish. Don't freak out when your water turns a little yellowish, the wood will do that. You should call around and look for GH/KH testers, they are a lot more important than your PH. Remember, it is okay for your PH to fluxtuate between 6-8. Hopefully soon it will fluxtuate in less frequency, but water does strange things when it's cycling. A tank can take up to 3 months to cycle, but normally only 2. The smaller it is, the harder it is to maintain, but I think you said you only have 4 glo-fish which is NOT overstocking. You are doing a great job...I hope it all works out. Just remember to try not to treat your tank like a chemistry set. Also, I was thinking that maybe you should not use Prime for every water change, maybe just something to eliminate tap water additions and protect the slime coat. API also has a product for water changes that may be a little milder than Prime. One more thing, the tester strips do not work, so dont waste your money.

Good luck!

Katie

 

[librarygirl]

I do not recommend using any type of PH adjusters. If you start using them you have to use them on every water change, and personally I think that would be more stressful to your fish. Keep in mind your PH is always going to fluxuate. Just the light alone is going to change it during the day. I know yours seems rather drastic, fish can thrive (glo fish) in anything between 6-8. You need to keep doing the water changes, maybe not as often as you are right now. Another thing that can naturally buffer the water is drift wood, that will help balance out the PH slowly, which is what is healthiest for your fish. Don't freak out when your water turns a little yellowish, the wood will do that. You should call around and look for GH/KH testers, they are a lot more important than your PH. Remember, it is okay for your PH to fluxtuate between 6-8. Hopefully soon it will fluxtuate in less frequency, but water does strange things when it's cycling. A tank can take up to 3 months to cycle, but normally only 2. The smaller it is, the harder it is to maintain, but I think you said you only have 4 glo-fish which is NOT overstocking. You are doing a great job...I hope it all works out. Just remember to try not to treat your tank like a chemistry set. Also, I was thinking that maybe you should not use Prime for every water change, maybe just something to eliminate tap water additions and protect the slime coat. API also has a product for water changes that may be a little milder than Prime. One more thing, the tester strips do not work, so dont waste your money.

Good luck!

Katie

Thanks again! I didn't know ph fluctuations were normal during cycling, so whew maybe it's OK then. I'll def look into the gh/kh kits (and will be posting again when I get those numbers b/c I have no idea what they'll mean lol). Driftwood is a good idea too, I'll have to get a small piece though, 12 gals isn't that big.

About the Prime...I just got what PetSmart told me to get. So what's the difference between Prime and a regular dechlorinator? I'll look into that next time I'm at the store. Thanks again, you're super helpful!

 

[clgklg]

Hey there,

Are you in America? Maybe I can help you find a reputable fish store. I have an AWESOME one about 45 minutes from me but it's worth the drive, they test my water for free and sometimes the second opinion is needed. Plus I can call them anytime to get advice. As for Prime I am going to give you my opionion, so I hope I do not anger anyone but I feel very stongly that I am right. I truly believe Prime should only be used in emergencies, and usually in already established tanks. Things like API StressCoat, are not really a chemical but something to get rid of chemicals in the water and protect the fishes slimecoat. Prime is when you are having a crisis in your tank, so if you are cycling and you keep putting Prime into your tank its going to bind your nitrite and nitrate. If your Nitrite and Nitrate are getting bound everyday then how are you going to cycle? If your good bacteria is actually working and turning your ammonia into Nitrites, then your countering it by binding them...make sense? I know that freshwater and marine are very different but if you ask someone with an established marine tank, chances are they would never use Prime, and the ones that have likely had results like dead rock, fish, or severly damaged fish.
Also, do you use and RO water in your tank? If you can you may want to pick up one gallon of RO water for a couple bucks to mix into your tank for every water change. That should lower your PH and keep it a little more stable. The moral is try not to use chemicals unless a must, and your more natural water conditioners should be the only thing you need.

Try not to use Prime for a couple days and see if that helps get your cycle to finish up

Good luck!

Katie

 

[eaglesaquarium]

Hey there,

Are you in America? Maybe I can help you find a reputable fish store. I have an AWESOME one about 45 minutes from me but it's worth the drive, they test my water for free and sometimes the second opinion is needed. Plus I can call them anytime to get advice. As for Prime I am going to give you my opionion, so I hope I do not anger anyone but I feel very stongly that I am right. I truly believe Prime should only be used in emergencies, and usually in already established tanks. Things like API StressCoat, are not really a chemical but something to get rid of chemicals in the water and protect the fishes slimecoat. Prime is when you are having a crisis in your tank, so if you are cycling and you keep putting Prime into your tank its going to bind your nitrite and nitrate. If your Nitrite and Nitrate are getting bound everyday then how are you going to cycle? If your good bacteria is actually working and turning your ammonia into Nitrites, then your countering it by binding them...make sense? I know that freshwater and marine are very different but if you ask someone with an established marine tank, chances are they would never use Prime, and the ones that have likely had results like dead rock, fish, or severly damaged fish.
Also, do you use and RO water in your tank? If you can you may want to pick up one gallon of RO water for a couple bucks to mix into your tank for every water change. That should lower your PH and keep it a little more stable. The moral is try not to use chemicals unless a must, and your more natural water conditioners should be the only thing you need.

Try not to use Prime for a couple days and see if that helps get your cycle to finish up

Good luck!

Katie

Using RO would lower the pH, but how would that make it more stable? My understanding on stable pH is that you need buffers in the water, this is where the kH reading comes in. With RO, the kH is really low, so there almost no buffering capacity in the water to help to keep the pH at a stable level. Is this correct, or am I missing something?

 

[clgklg]

no, you are correct - but if you read her excel sheet it looks like her tap water is way out of wack. It seems like she is doing everything by the book so I'm just trying to tweek things a bit and I thought maybe if she diluted her water a bit with RO it will bring her KH/GH readingd down also lowering the PH. for example, I do all RO water (really hard water) and add 6 cups of tap to it for minerals ect. The RO readings never change so the tap does not have a big affect on my PH. I think 'stable' is not the right word to use, thanks. I do not want to steer her wrong, do you have any thoughts on what could help make her cycle less dramatic on the fish? Thanks again

 

[OldMan47]

Hi there LG. I see our main cycle expert, WaterDrop, has not been on to help you yet. Please take a sample of your tap water as it is drawn and 24 hours after it is drawn to get an idea of the tap pH and the pH after any entrained gasses have gassed off. My first guess is that something in your tap water significantly affects your pH so it is hard to tell what will happen to pH over time without that information.
As long as you can control both ammonia and nitrites at less than 0.25 ppm, as tested by the API tests, your fish will be fine during the cycle. Everything else is nice to know information but may not be critical. My first guess is that your local water supply has very little buffering capacity so the pH is all over the map. The fish simply will not care much about the pH so that is not really a problem for them. On the other hand, your bacteria will grow far better with a high pH.
If you find that the tap water pH is moving around, try a small addition of crushed coral or crushed shell in your filter to stabilize the pH of the tank water. The thing that happens is that the calcium carbonate that makes up shells of almost any kind will slowly dissolve into your water and will help stop the pH swings. The carbonate will act as a buffer to your pH. Crushed coral or crushed shell is sold as a substrate for saltwater tanks, so it is readily available in any decent fish shop. It may not be marked as crushed shell but have a hard look at the stuff they are selling for saltwater tanks. It will be obvious on close inspection.

 

[clgklg]

OldMan47 - will the coral increase the PH of the water? And what about the Prime? Should she keep using that or is that interfeing with the cycle?

 

[OldMan47]

Prime is good to use during the cycle. It helps with the toxicity of ammonia without interfering with the bacterial colony's growth. The coral will indeed tend to slowly raise the pH of the water, but the problem being experienced could use help in that respect.

 

[clgklg]

OM47 - one more thing, I had suggested wood to slowly lower the PH can she use that if she's already bought it? And if so can she boil it and still get the same outcome?

Thanks again