Ph Crashing Fish Dying

Raydawn

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20 gallon, tropical fish

Hi all, I feel terrible, but here's my sad tale:

My tank had finally finished cycling. Then I went on vacation for two weeks, and when I came back, everything was absolutely FINE. Levels were consistent and fish were happy (5/29/11). My vacuum pump broke, but I did not stress too much since my levels were fine. All the sudden (around 6/13) fish started dying, mostly mollies. I tested my pH and it was 6.0! Thinking the problem was accumulating food, I bought a new pump and did a very thorough cleaning of the rock. I changed a large amount of water and put in a new filter cartridge (the first time I changed it after the tank was cycled). My pH went back up to 6.8, but the next day it was down to 6.4. I changed more water, and now it's down to 6.0!

There are still two fish alive: A zebra danio and a Red Tux Sword. How can I get my tank bank to normal and save my fish?
 
Have you tested your water recently? If you have, post the results, your full water parameters (Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrates, pH). There's a few things that pH swings can be attributed to but it'll be hard for forum members to pinpoint what the problem might be w/o the water parameters.

Also what type of water are you using? Tap water? Well water? R/O? other? It might be a buffering issue. Any & all info you can provide will make it easier to correctly diagnose the issue.
 
Sorry, I should have added more info. I haven't tested anything but pH since 6/18. I will test again tonight after work.

Tank size: 20 gallons
pH: 6.0 (6/21)
ammonia: 0 (6/18)
nitrite: 0.1 (6/18)
nitrate: 5 ppm (6/18)
kH: Not tested. Test kit ordered.
gH: Not tested. Test kit ordered.
tank temp: 78* F

Fish Symptoms (include full description including lesion, color, location, fish behavior): Erratic movement, followed by no movement, followed by death.
Volume and Frequency of water changes: 10-20% weekly.
Chemical Additives or Media in your tank: No chemicals. Three small live plants.
Tank inhabitants: Down to one Danio now.
Recent additions to your tank (living or decoration): None
Exposure to chemicals: None I know of.
Digital photo (include if possible): I can upload one later.

I wish I hadn't made so many large changes at once (huge vacuuming, large water change, filter change), because now I have no idea which ones may (or may not) have contributed to the problem. If my pH is this low for too long, my bacteria will die soon too, yes? Do I need to use a chemical to raise the pH at this point to save the bacteria?
 
Okay, here's the latest:

My red tux sword is still alive, he was just hiding in the tree decoration. Latest tests:

Tank size: 20 gallons
pH: 6.0
ammonia: 0.1
nitrite: 0.1
nitrate: 5 ppm
kH: 1 drop to change to yellow
gH: 7 drops to change to green
tank temp: 79* F

(Please explain the hardness results. Do I count the total drops (8) to determine the ppm KH/GH and that is my "total hardness?")

So after taking the test I did a 10% water change. I added 2 scoops (for 20 gallons) of API Proper pH 7.0, and I put in about 1 cup of crushed coral in a mesh bag, rinsed it in de-chlorinated water, and buried it in my normal aquarium gravel.

What do you guys think, am I doing the right things?
 
Thanks for providing your water parameters.

I've got two more questions.

1.) How long has this tank been established?

2.) Did you introduce all of your fish all at the same time? Or did you introduce a few fish at a time (over the course of a few days - weeks)? Significantly increasing the bio-load of your tank by introducing too much stock all at once can contribute to ammonia spikes which could set off a mini-cycle.

I'm suspecting the culprit might be a mini-cycle due to your ammonia & nitrite readings, both of which should be at 0 in a fully cycled tank.
 
My tank was set up initially in March. I was following the kit instructions when I got it (I did not know about fishless cycling) and started off slowly. Unfortunately I lost some fish while the tank was cycling (I should not have trusted the kit instructions - I should have researched on my own first) but only added one or two at a time. At the end of April I bought two mollies. In the beginning of May (5/6) the molly had six fry I could see. By this time, ammonia had been dropping significantly while nitrates were rising. 6/13 was when things started going wrong.

After all my changes in my previous post, I took readings again this morning at 7:00am EST:

pH: 6.4
KH: 2 drops

The tux sword and zebra danio were hungry this morning, too.
 
I noticed, when reading through your initial post, that you say you "replaced the filter cartridge" - if you have totally replaced your filter cartridge then you have thrown away all your good bacteria with it (unless you have a separate sponge filter, too?). Replacing filter cartridges/sponges sets you back to square 1 on the cycle path - in other words, you will be re-cycling your tank every time you replace the filter cartridge.

Not sure what type of filter you are using but if it's one of those that has either a little plastic box inside with charcoal in it, or a little white bag of charcoal that you replace every month...ditch it - you are better off having a sponge filter and it will last you years. All that's needed with a sponge filter is a little light slooshing in some of the removed tank water at the time of doing water changes. Charcoal cartridges aren't necessary, anyway, apart from using to help clear medications from the tank water (even then they are not necessary as water changes will do that anyway).

If you want to tell us which filter you are using etc then we will have a better idea of what may have happened.

Regards, Athena
 
My filter is a hang-on-the-back Tetra Whisper EX20. It has a slot for a carbon filter pouch, which the water passes through first, followed by some kind of "Bio Scrubber" thing... I was under the impression bacteria was held here, too, allowing one to change the carbon pouch. I had kept the original carbon filter pouch since installation and replaced it after my mollies started dying.

I'm not a fan of the hang-on-the-back models at all, but this is all I can really find in stores around here. I'm not sure I understand the sponge filter idea. I'll try to find some reading material on it. But if I need to replace my filter, I will do it and am I obviously open to suggestions.

EDIT: Okay, I read up on the sponge filter and I understand what you mean now. Do you recommend a sponge filter in place of my current one, or to supplement it?
 
My tank was set up initially in March. I was following the kit instructions when I got it (I did not know about fishless cycling) and started off slowly. Unfortunately I lost some fish while the tank was cycling (I should not have trusted the kit instructions - I should have researched on my own first) but only added one or two at a time. At the end of April I bought two mollies. In the beginning of May (5/6) the molly had six fry I could see. By this time, ammonia had been dropping significantly while nitrates were rising. 6/13 was when things started going wrong.

After all my changes in my previous post, I took readings again this morning at 7:00am EST:

pH: 6.4
KH: 2 drops

The tux sword and zebra danio were hungry this morning, too.

Based on what you're saying it sounds like a mini-cycle or recycling of your tank.

As long as you 1.) Keep up with water changes 2.) Keep testing your water regularly until you get readings of 0 on both your ammonia & nitrite levels & 3.) Hold off on introducing anymore fish into the tank until you get both of these readings to 0 your tank should bounce back fine.

Once you get the appropriate readings signaling that the tank is properly cycled you can proceed to introduce new fish in "waves", make sure you test the water immediately after introducing new stock for a few days. If your readings remain unaltered then you can go ahead & introduce a few more fish etc until your tank is stocked to your liking.
 
My filter is a hang-on-the-back Tetra Whisper EX20. It has a slot for a carbon filter pouch, which the water passes through first, followed by some kind of "Bio Scrubber" thing... I was under the impression bacteria was held here, too, allowing one to change the carbon pouch. I had kept the original carbon filter pouch since installation and replaced it after my mollies started dying.

I'm not a fan of the hang-on-the-back models at all, but this is all I can really find in stores around here. I'm not sure I understand the sponge filter idea. I'll try to find some reading material on it. But if I need to replace my filter, I will do it and am I obviously open to suggestions.

EDIT: Okay, I read up on the sponge filter and I understand what you mean now. Do you recommend a sponge filter in place of my current one, or to supplement it?

Anything with a porous surface would house beneficial nitrifying bacteria (bb), that includes the "Bio Scrubber" thing..." you mentioned. As long as you didn't swap it out then your bb colony should be fine.

Sponge filters provide great bio-filtration (because sponges are porous & house lots of bb in them) but their mechanical filtration is limited. You could use a sponge filter as your only filter provided you are using it in a smaller tank (I'd recommend 10g or below) & you keep up with water changes but if you've already got an HOB running I'd use it as a supplemental filter in addition to the HOB.

You can increase the mechanical filtration of a sponge filter by attaching it to a power head via some uplift tubing but IME it's not really necessary if you're not over stocked & you are already running a HOB.

You can buy a manufactured sponge filter at your LFS/chain pet store or you can make one yourself. They're really easy to make & there are plenty of videos/tutorials around instructing you how to do so. Just make sure that if you decide to go with the DIY sponge filter that you use a polyurethane sponge NOT a cellulose sponge. A cellulose sponge will quickly decomposed when submerged in water for long periods & make more of a mess than anything.
 
First, the good news is that the sword and danio still seem better and both ate heartily the blood worms I put in for them. The bad news is that pH and KH have dropped again. Measurements are 12 hours after my last post:

pH: 6.0
ammonia: 0.0
nitrite: 0.1
nitrate: 5 ppm
kH: 1 drop
gH: 7 drops
tank temp: 79* F

(I'll be honest, I'm not sure exactly what my nitrite levels are at. The indicator card shows 0 as a pale blue. 0.25 is the next color indicated and that is purple. My water is definitely not testing purple, but since it's slightly darker than the 0 marker I've been calling it 0.1. I'm using the API test kit.)

So, another water change (bigger this time, 25%), more Proper pH, and a tiny bit of pH UP... That's about all I can do at the moment, right?

Thanks, I found some great videos on YouTube of DIY sponge filters. My only concern with them is weighing them down. Maybe I'll try to work an air stone inside one?

EDIT: Oh, one more thing. I noticed the Proper pH instructions say "not to be used in aquariums with plants." The only explanation it gives in the instructions is that it's a phosphate buffer. I really don't understand the implications of that, but I do have 3 small plants in the tank. I'm thinking the worst that can happen is my plants die. I'd much rather have my plants die and stabilize my tank, so I am using it anyway.
 
First, the good news is that the sword and danio still seem better and both ate heartily the blood worms I put in for them. The bad news is that pH and KH have dropped again. Measurements are 12 hours after my last post:

pH: 6.0
ammonia: 0.0
nitrite: 0.1
nitrate: 5 ppm
kH: 1 drop
gH: 7 drops
tank temp: 79* F

(I'll be honest, I'm not sure exactly what my nitrite levels are at. The indicator card shows 0 as a pale blue. 0.25 is the next color indicated and that is purple. My water is definitely not testing purple, but since it's slightly darker than the 0 marker I've been calling it 0.1. I'm using the API test kit.)

So, another water change (bigger this time, 25%), more Proper pH, and a tiny bit of pH UP... That's about all I can do at the moment, right?

Thanks, I found some great videos on YouTube of DIY sponge filters. My only concern with them is weighing them down. Maybe I'll try to work an air stone inside one?

EDIT: Oh, one more thing. I noticed the Proper pH instructions say "not to be used in aquariums with plants." The only explanation it gives in the instructions is that it's a phosphate buffer. I really don't understand the implications of that, but I do have 3 small plants in the tank. I'm thinking the worst that can happen is my plants die. I'd much rather have my plants die and stabilize my tank, so I am using it anyway.

Don't take offense but I think you maybe over complicating things. A pH between 6.0 - 8.0 is perfectly fine for keeping most fish without any ill effects. Only time you need to really concern yourself with the pH of your tank is if 1.) You see a drastic drop in pH, down to dangerous levels i.e. 5.0 & below as this starts affecting reproduction & overall health 2.)If you are observing drastic pH swings (a swing of 1.5 or 2.0 is drastic, a swing of 0.4 or 0.8 is nothing to be alarmed about) & 3.) If you are trying to induce breeding behavior in "soft" water fish species (e.g. discus, tetras, rasboras etc).

Fish can adapt to a wide range of pH levels, especially tank bred/raised specimens like most of the more common species in the hobby today. Ammonia however is a different story, it doesn't take long before trace amounts of ammonia begin to approach lethal levels & start killing off fish. This is why I suggested that you concern yourself more with your ammonia, nitrite, & nitrate levels rather than your pH of 6.0 (which is fine).

A lot of things can affect pH. This is why in my first post I asked if you are using well water, tap water, R/O water (reverse osmosis) etc. Tap water is usually treated with buffering agents by the water supplier (company) so the pH of tap water is usually more stable. Well water on the other hand is usually not so it's not uncommon for the pH level of well water to change as much as by 1.0 when introduced to your tank. The pH of well water can also vary greatly from season to season, in tap water it does not. What your tank water's pH level ends up being all depends on what you have in the tank. If you have driftwood in your tank, especially a newer piece that still has tannins in it, it can soften (lower pH) your water over time. If you have a lot of rocks & stone decor in your tank, that will harden (raise pH) your water over time.

Test your water before adding it to your tank. If it reads 6.8, make a note of it & proceed adding it to the tank. Don't test your water's pH immediately after adding new water, wait 1 day. The next day test your tank's water & if it reads 6.4 or 6.0 then make a note of it & wait one more day before testing again. Test again & if it reads at 6.0 & stays at 6.0 then that's fine, that's your tanks pH. Something in the tank, be it driftwood, CO2 (pressurized or DIY), peat moss (if you are using any) etc, is softening the water. Or perhaps like I suggested, the water you are using isn't being treated with a buffering agent hence the change in pH you are observing after you introduce new water into the tank.

Refrain from using pH up, pH down, "water softener" pillows, or any other chemicals as all these items do is compound your situation, not help it. They'll give you what appears to be adequate pH readings in the short term by replacing Mg++(magnesium)& Ca++(calcium)ions with Na+(salt) or PO43-(phosphates) but fail to achieve stable pH levels in the long run.

If you want to increase your water's pH from 6.0 to say 7.5 - 8.0 because you are keeping great rift lake cichlids or something along those lines & you want to get them breeding then you can achieve this by removing any wood in the tank & replacing it with stone decor/rocks & adding some crushed coral to the tank. On the flip side, if your water's pH is 8.0 & you want to get it down to 7.0 - 6.5 because you want to attempt to breed tetras, then adding driftwood to the tank & filtering your water through peat moss would achieve this. Both of these methods provide you with much more stable pH levels than using chemicals like pH up or pH down. If you are not trying to breed your fish & your pH is between 6.0 - 8.0 then it's fine, let it be. The same applies to kH & gH, unless you are trying to breed fish, don't sweat it, as most fish well do fine in varying kH & gH levels.

Like I said before, I suspect the culprit is a min-cycle or recycling of the tank due to an initially cycling the tank improperly. Keep testing your water for the next few weeks (2 1/2 - 3). If you get readings resembling the ones below then you can rest assured that your tank has cycled completely & look to start adding more stock in waves.

pH: 6.0 - 8.0
ammonia: 0.0
nitrite: 0.0
nitrate: 1 - 5 ppm

If your pH level is still really nagging you then go out & buy yourself a low/high range pH test kit that tests for ph levels below 6.0 & above 8.0. That way if you suspect that your pH might be lower than 6.0 & it's what is causing you problems then you can treat it accordingly. By using pH up & pH down you are attempting to treat a cause without a full diagnosis while altering test readings haphazardly.
 
Thank you for all the information - that is very helpful. The reason I was so concerned was that it used to be around 6.8 and when it swung lower (it may have been lower than 6.0, I need to get a low-range kit) my mollies started dying. I also added a small amount of baking soda to the water last night.

This morning 7:00am EST (12 hours):

pH: 7.0
KH: 8

Like you said, I'll let things go for a few weeks and see what stabilizes. I didn't know 6.0 was okay.
 
Mollies generally prefer hard water, and in general hard water has more buffering ability, so its possible that the hardness was the issue for the mollies more than the pH.
 
Thank you for all the information - that is very helpful. The reason I was so concerned was that it used to be around 6.8 and when it swung lower (it may have been lower than 6.0, I need to get a low-range kit) my mollies started dying. I also added a small amount of baking soda to the water last night.

This morning 7:00am EST (12 hours):

pH: 7.0
KH: 8

Like you said, I'll let things go for a few weeks and see what stabilizes. I didn't know 6.0 was okay.

No problem, I hope the info helps & I can see why you are concerned. Anytime you lose fish you should be concerned, just don't let that concern drive you do actions that will compound the situation. Trying to achieve proper pH by the use of chemicals is a disaster in the making. Like I said before you're better off using natural remedies such as crushed coral, stone/rock, or sodium bicarbonate (i.e. baking soda like you did :cool: )to raise pH & things like driftwood, peat moss, or diluting your water with R/O water from an R/O system to lower it. However IMHO an R/O system can be expensive & is not worth it unless you are keeping/breeding FW Discus fish or if you are keeping SW tanks with corals etc. JUST STAY AWAY from pH UP & pH DOWN, both are a bad idea.

Just don't fuss with the tank, perform regular maintenance (i.e. scheduled water changes), observe the remaining fish & test the water periodically over the course of a couple of weeks. Observing & testing while maintaining stable conditions & not fussing over the tank (i.e. not adding pH UP, pH down, not performing drastic water changes etc) will allow you to make an accurate assessment as to what the problem is or might have been.

In the meantime if you want to keep busy go ahead & buy or make yourself a good sponge filter (I know you asked how you would go about weighing one down). If you are attaching an uplift tube or pvc pipe to a powerhead, you won't need to weigh it down, just slip the sponge on the tube/pipe and it will be held in place by the tube/pipe. If you're not using a powerhead then you can attach a piece of slate to the bottom of the tube/pipe with some silicone & then run an airstone attached to an airline through the tube/pipe. You can also make a sponge/"box" filter combo using an empty water/beverage bottle, these can easily by weighed down with some gravel or marbles.
 

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