PH and driftwood

[Colin_T]

@Colin_T
fish I keep (which I was hoping all would adapt to the 6.8 my tap water is)
5 neon tetras
4 guppies
2 danios
2 rummy nose
2 black widow
2 dwarf gourami
1 albino Plec
1 rainbow shark (will get a bigger tank next year)
Again was told by the shop the shark would be fine.

If your GH is 330ppm and KH is 260ppm, then it is great for livebearers like guppies, platies, swordtails and mollies. Rainbowfish and African Rift Lake cichlids will also do well in that water.

Tetras, danios and gouramis won't like the hard water and naturally occur in water with a GH below 150ppm (usually below 50ppm). If you want to keep these fish, you should use half distilled or reverse osmosis (R/O) water and half tap water. However, if you drop the GH below 200ppm then don't bother keeping guppies because they won't do that well.

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Don't keep dwarf gouramis (Colisa lalius) or any of their colour forms because they are riddles with diseases including the Iridovirus and Tuberculosis, neither of which can be treated and both remain in the tank until you strip the tank down and sterilise everything and get new fish.

All tetras and danios should be kept in groups of 10 or more.​

A small rainbow shark should be fine in a tank that is 3 foot long or bigger, but watch them when they mature. Sometimes the males can get grumpy. Males have a black edge to the anal (bottom) fin.

If you want a suckermouth catfish, get an albino bristlenose catfish and not an albino pleco (Plecostomus). The bristlenose get to 4-5 inches, the Pleco reaches 18-24 inches.

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The pH of your tank water could be going up because of the GH and KH in the tap water. You can test the tap water by filling up a bucket of water and testing the pH straight away. Then aerate the water for 24 hours and test the pH again.

You can also test the gravel by putting some into a bucket of water and monitoring the pH over a week.

 

[Tttay89]

Cheers everyone for all the advice, I can't believe the difference in the advice you get on forums and in the shops? What are they playing at? Pet's at home actually have a sign up that says 'Please be patient when buying a new tank , wait 1 day before adding fish

Is it possible to have a pH of around 7 with rock hard water?


Anyway here's my plans then after the guidance you've given, please let me know if to do any different.

1. Properly check my KH GH and PH and then again 24 hours later
2. Buy a finer gravel, one that doesn't contain calcium
3.up my % water changes (Please advise what %will be fine before i have to start warming up buckets of water)
5. Using RO water mixed with tap ( is there a process I can produce RO water or is this bought in kegs from aquariums- sorry another newb question
6. When this is all done my PH will be in the close 7s with softer water and stable, hopefully
7. Whack a few more tetras and dannios in
8. Start argument with partner for choosing phoney gravel

As for the fish I do have them all already so hopefully they can adapt to softer water and an average and steady pH of 7 .
The dwarf gouramis are certain to spread diseases and cause tank issues?
Sharks defintly male is very small but will upgrade tank size
I believe my albino may be a bristlenose as the label said around 5" and it does have the moustache

Cheers again everyone and please correct and of the above for me

 

[Colin_T]

Pet's at home actually have a sign up that says 'Please be patient when buying a new tank , wait 1 day before adding fish

Most people want fish straight away so the shop lets them do a fish in cycle. It's common practice because most people don't want a tank of water with no fish in their loungeroom for 6 weeks.

Is it possible to have a pH of around 7 with rock hard water?

yes.

Anyway here's my plans then after the guidance you've given, please let me know if to do any different.

2. test the gravel first, it might be fine and not contributing to the high pH.

5. you can buy R/O units and use them at home. They waste a bit of water and the best units have a 1 to 1 ratio of R/O water and waste water. The waste water is where all the minerals and nutrients go and this gets put on the garden. They also take time to remove the minerals from the water so most people have them running overnight and fill up a large plastic container with the R/O water.
Google reverse osmosis units or visit a local hardware store.

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Dwarf gouramis can carry the Iridovirus or TB for months and show no symptoms. However, if you have had them for a while and they are still fine and healthy, they might be free of the diseases.

If the albino catfish has bristles on its face, then it's probably a bristlenose. Common plecos don't get big bristles on their face. If you post a picture of the fish we should be able to confirm its ID.

 

[seangee]

An easy test for the gravel is to put a little in a saucer and pour vinegar on it. It should not fizz. If it does that is what is making your pH go up.

 

[Byron]

Ok I'll get beat up on this but I use pH down (by API) to get my pH to 7. Everybody wants to do this the natural way but sometimes that is not possible

This is NOT going to work here, and it will result in dead fish, guaranteed. The pH is connected to the GH and KH, and other factors such as the CO2. As other members have already indicated, the high GH/KH means the pH is going to be basic (above 7) and likely quite a way above 7. There is absolutely no way to alter the pH here except by lowering the GH/KH as Colin indicated. The use of any pH adjusting chemical will be temporary, and the fluctuating pH is very damaging to fish.

To the OP's issue, when you have the pH for the source (tap) water after the 24 hours I suspect it will be higher than the low 7. It is possible the gravel is dissolving calcium which will increase the pH further. Increasing pH by use of calcareous substances is fairly easy because these just bolster the already calcareous aspect, if that makes sense. Lowering the pH in such situations is impossible without diluting the GH/KH because they basically govern the pH in this case.

On your question about the size of the gravel and the decomposing organic matter in it, yes, larger gravel does impede the natural breakdown of organics. Finer gravel and sand are better for this.

There is frankly no better substrate than inert sand. The aquarium sands are one option, provided they are not calcareous (some are). Regular play sand is inert, safe, and inexpensive.

 

[Tttay89]

Lowering the pH in such situations is impossible without diluting the GH/KH because they basically govern the pH in this case

So if my gravel Is the problem and I switched it for a more sufficient substrate I still wouldn't be able to lower my ph because of my off the scale hard tap water?

 

[Byron]

So if my gravel Is the problem and I switched it for a more sufficient substrate I still wouldn't be able to lower my ph because of my off the scale hard tap water?

The gravel and the source water GH/KH/pH are two very separate things.

Taking the source water first, the high GH and (particularly) KH means that the pH of the source water [which we have not yet determined accurately, that is your 24-hour test or get this number from the water authority] is not going to lower unless the GH/KH are significantly reduced.

The dissolved mineral (calcium and magnesium) which is the GH and especially the buffering capacity of the KH will prevent the pH from fluctuating or lowering. It can be raised higher by more dissolved calcium/magnesium, which is where the gravel comes in, or may come in.

 

[Colin_T]

So if my gravel Is the problem and I switched it for a more sufficient substrate I still wouldn't be able to lower my ph because of my off the scale hard tap water?

The carbonate hardness (KH) and to some degree the general hardness (GH), will stop the pH dropping. The carbonate hardness buffers any acids in the water and stops the pH dropping. If you have lots of carbonates in the water, the pH normally goes up.

You have a lot of carbonates in the water and this will prevent the pH from dropping. The only way to overcome this is to reduce the KH and GH by using some R/O water to dilute them.

 

[Tttay89]

I did buy some catapa leaves and was told this will soften the water? Any experience with these? I will not use these yet as I'm not overly keen on the brown water I'll get.
I'll get accurate PH GH KH tommorow/ next day
Post results
Get new gravel and gradually change

Just out of curiosity is ready RO water expensive?

My brother used to have a salt set up and had about 6 kegs of it in his bedroom all the time

 

[Byron]

I did buy some catapa leaves and was told this will soften the water? Any experience with these? I will not use these yet as I'm not overly keen on the brown water I'll get.

Softening the water (and subsequently lowering the pH) is done by adding organics like these leaves, but only if the buffering capability of the GH/KH is insufficient to prevent it. The buffering capability of this water according to the GH/KH numbers given earlier is significant and without first reducing it (by diluting the source water a lot) adding acids like organics (leaves, peat, wood) will have no real effect, and certainly no permanent effect.

If you are going to change the substrate, think it through carefully. First question is, what are the intended fish? Some fish need sand, fish like cories, loaches, many of the catfish. On the other hand, if you intend staying with the water you have out of the tap, hard water species like the livebearers, many of the rainbowfishes, and a few others will not have much concern over the substrate so either sand or a fine/small gravel works well to create a river aquascape. You want the substrate to be the right one, as it is the most important part of the aquarium and once the tank is biologically established and stable you do not really want to be ripping out the substrate because it really wasn't what you needed/wanted.

 

[seangee]

Just out of curiosity is ready RO water expensive?

My local Maidenhead charges £3.50 for 25 litres if you provide your own jerry can. Their jerry cans are expensive though so just get these off amazon. If your water is metered and you can live with regular trips to buy water that is probably your best option because as others have said, making your own RO is quite wasteful.

If you keep all of your current fish you probably want to mix it 50/50 with your tap water. Remember to ask for "straight RO" when you buy it, otherwise they will add minerals to it and charge you an extra 50p. If you decide not to keep the guppies go with 2:1 RO:tapwater. Alternatively if you stick with the guppies and other live bearers just use tapwater.

Also remember the actual value of the pH really doesn't matter and the fish don't care. GH is the number that matters for them.

 

[Tttay89]

I guess I just have to get my definite values 24 hours from now and take it from there.

I just tested 2 of my friends tanks who are currently cycling them. Both are at around PH 8.5

Am I correct in thinking everyone in the area or around the areas I live who do not use RO water and have a fish tank will have a high pH leading to ill fish ?

 

[Tttay89]

Also remember the actual value of the pH really doesn't matter and the fish don't care. GH is the number that matters for them.

Ah right ok I presume just if it's ridiculously high it'll be bad news.

Any truth behind -
All fish adapt to water hardness in time
?

 

[Byron]

I guess I just have to get my definite values 24 hours from now and take it from there.

Have you tried looking up the data on your municipal water authority's website? Or calling them? This would at least give us absolute numbers, esp for the pH.

I just tested 2 of my friends tanks who are currently cycling them. Both are at around PH 8.5
Am I correct in thinking everyone in the area or around the areas I live who do not use RO water and have a fish tank will have a high pH leading to ill fish ?

Not necessarily. The GH is the most important parameter (aside from temperature). The pH is important depending upon the value and the species, but there is more adaptability of a sort with pH than GH. The species of fish matters, as some require harder water than others. So we can generally say that someone with the GH/KH/pH values that have been mentioned could easily keep fish species such as livebearers that require moderately hard or harder water. This is very general, as there are other species that could manage, and then there are those that cannot manage long-term.

GH affects fish directly. Fish continually take in water through every cell and the gills, and substances in the water such as dissolved minerals get into the fish's bloodstream and internal organs. We know that soft water species kept in hard water do not live normal lifespans, and after death a necropsy (the term for an animal autopsy) shows calcium blockage of the kidneys as one example, which led to the early demise. Hard water species in soft water have a different problem, not getting sufficient minerals from this intake of water to properly function physiologically. And beyond these extremes, maintaining a species in water for which it is not designed to function means the fish must work harder just to manage its everyday processes. This slowly weakens the fish, and it may succumb to some disease or problem that it would normally be able to fight off, or it just dies. Rarely are there external signs indicating what actually happened internally.

So we can say that fish kept in water parameters that are close to those of the water for which they have been designed by nature will have an easier life, a less stressful life, and thus be healthier and, whatever the word may mean to a fish, "happier."

 

[Byron]

Any truth behind -
All fish adapt to water hardness in time
?

I partially explained this in my previous post above, typed while you were posting. Further to what I said there, some fish can adapt sort-of, but it depends upon the species and the extent to which the parameters differ from those the fish "expects" in its environment.

The physiology of a fish is such that it is the most connected animal to its environment, much more than any land animal (aside from amphibians, which also have a water connection). The fish in the water is functioning in ways that are difficult to explain or understand unless one just knows the biology. Water has very unique properties that are nothing like air, and the fish's relationship to those properties is incredibly complex and connected.

Marine (ocean) fish do not have so much of a problem because the water in all the oceans on the planet is basically identical in parameters (GH/KH/pH and TDS). So from the perspective solely of the water parameters, the marine fish can function anywhere. [Now, other factors like reef fish, temperature, etc come into play, we are not considering that here.] Not so with freshwater fish.

Water evaporates and condenses into clouds and is then in its pure state, pH 7 (neutral) and no dissolved substances so zero GH and KH. Water is a very unique substance on this planet; it is a powerful solvent, meaning that it easily and readily assimilates whatever it comes into contact with, such as dissolving minerals from rock it passes over or through, or organics from leaf and wood litter, earth, etc. This means that the freshwater in different geographical areas on the planet is not identical but different according to what it has come into contact with. "Pure" water with a pH of 7 does not naturally exist anywhere on the earth except as the condensed water in clouds.

Freshwater fish have evolved over thousands of years to function in very specific parameters, and a very specific environment with respect to everything in the water and around it. Species cannot adapt rapidly when the physiology is so fundamental to that environment. Some can adapt to varying degrees, usually due to other factors, while other species have great difficulty doing this, if at all.