Parasite, Ammonia or both?

[InspiredDad]

so my son is now obsessed with fish and has a 64l tank for his tropical fish. He has 3molly 2sailfin molly and a koi betta.

He lost 1 sailfin 2weeks ago and when we went down to test the water (our kit was all spot on) they said the ammonia was at 6 and I bought a testing kit for it (initially told we didn't need one). This mornings test appeared around 2.5-3

Yesterday one of the other mollys was swimming strange and couldn't swim up, then stayed low to the gravel and barely moved.

I spotted what appeared to be a parasite and when on further investigation and clearing the gravel I found more (https://imgur.com/a/uagMG)

This molly has just died whilst I was out picking up supplies for the tank with the intent of quarantining it.

At present the tank has a living plant (did have more but they died - I think because they were under the filter the weight broke the stem) a heater, and filter that came with the tank. It gets 8hrs of light a day and doesn't get much sunlight

I just bought replacement small gravel because we have a manual pump for clearing the base but the large gravel we had meant the excess food/waste was building up. I bought some water clearer (balls?) and parasite treatment for the water.

My plan is to replace the gravel and do a 50% water change,l whilst introducing the new filter, treat for parasites and include the balls. Then as ammonia levels drop introduce new plants.

I just ordered a 19l tank for him to grow plants of his own and am thinking of separating the koi betta so he doesn't begin to finnip the sailfins (no signs of aggression yet) by moving him to the new tank.

Just looking for thoughts/opinions as I'm new to this, does this seem like a sensible plan or wasting my time going down the wrong route?

 

[nic1]

How long has your tank been set up for?
The betta needs his own space as he can get quite aggressive, so moving him to the 19L is a must.
I would suggest that you change the water every other day 40-50% until you have safe parameters and watch for any aggression while you are waiting for the new tank to cycle.
You dont need to treat the tank for parasites, what you found looks to be a mosquito larvae which could of come in with the plants. The fish sometimes will eat them, the rest you can scoop them out, or get rid of them with your gravel change (which you have to rinse throughly before introducing to the new tank)

Why are you putting in a new filter? are you moving over the filter media?

 

[Byron]

I agree with nic1 so won't repeat that, but move on to some other issues.

First, you have too many fish for a 64 litre (roughly 15 gallon) aquarium. I know the fish may be small in size now, but they will grow. Mollies can attain 3 inches (male) and 5+ inches (female). The mature size of a fish has to be considered when acquiring them.

Aside from that, mollies are incredibly sensitive to any level of ammonia. Ammonia or nitrite causes internal problems that will not reverse, so once the fish is exposed to high levels the damage is done, so to speak. This weakens the fish, making them more susceptible to all sorts of other issues, and always shortens their lifespan.

You should re-home the surviving mollies as no matter what, they will not be suited to this small a tank. Members can advise on suitable fish later, but the first urgency is to deal with the present problem.

Giving us the water parameters (hardness and pH) will also help. And on this, mollies must have moderately hard or harder water, which you may or may not have (your tap water). Rather than another test kit, you can find out the GH and pH from your water authority.

Byron.

 

[InspiredDad]

I used aqadvisor for the stocking as is now (excluding koi) http://aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php?...AqSpeciesWindowSize=short&AqSearchMode=simple

Sorry for long link on mobile so couldn't use bbcode function.

The new tank is now setup so that will be beginning the cycle now so koi will be moved asap. 5mollys (all male) in the tank seems low though. I intend on getting him a 6ft tank next year so they can be moved as they grow up.

From memory I think the gh was 7.5 in the tank but will check when I get home

 

[Byron]

I used aqadvisor for the stocking as is now (excluding koi) http/aqadvisor.com/AqAdvisor.php?AquTankName=Tank&AquListBoxTank=Choose&AquTankLength=61&AquTankDepth=44&AquTankHeight=24&AquListBoxFilter=Choose&AquTextFilterRate=N/A+&AquListBoxFilter2=Choose&AquTextFilterRate2=N/A+&AquFilterString=&AquListBoxChooser=Molly+(Poecilia+sphenops)&AquTextBoxQuantity=&AquTextBoxRemoveQuantity=1&FormSubmit=<+Remove&AquListBoxSelected=4+x+Molly+(Poecilia+sphenops)&AlreadySelected=200909300131:4:0:,200909300198:2:0:&FilterMode=Display+all+species&AqTempUnit=C&AqVolUnit=L&AqLengthUnit=cm&AqSortType=cname&FilterQuantity=2&AqJuvMode=&AqSpeciesWindowSize=short&AqSearchMode=simple

Sorry for long link on mobile so couldn't use bbcode function.

The new tank is now setup so that will be beginning the cycle now so koi will be moved asap. 5mollys (all male) in the tank seems low though. I intend on getting him a 6ft tank next year so they can be moved as they grow up.

From memory I think the gh was 7.5 in the tank but will check when I get home

Do you mean pH or GH at 7.5? This needs clarifying.

I don't use automatic calculators because it is impossible to build into a program all of the factors that affect fish load in a given aquarium. Just to rattle off some of them...temperature, GH, KH, pH, plants, substrate, decor (wood, rock, whatever), the species (same sized fish of a different species do not need the same space), behaviours, swimming activity level, water changes. While fish mass to water volume is important, there are other factors as important and as you can see they are many. The calculation on Aquadvisor for this specific issue is way off base.

If a larger tank is definitely planned, well and good. But, this may not come about for various reasons, and a wise maxim is to only acquire fish that will be suited to your existing tank throughout their lives. Fish grow continually, and they require a certain amount of physical space and a specific water volume to properly develop; the two are related but different, and either can be detrimental to a fish's development. This hobby is about living creatures with very specific needs, and there is no short cutting if the fish are to be in the best health, which I'm sure you will agree should be out aim. I know from the other thread that this started as a learning project for your son, and I believe a major part of this teaching/learning is getting this across.

Byron.

 

[InspiredDad]

Wanted to confirm I just ordered a fluval Roma 240 (with cabinet) will be here within 72hrs. So the fish have a long term home on route.

Run a test on the 64l tank all reporting as normal and yeah 7.5 was the pH and ammonia has reported in at 0.

I've had a conversation with my son and explained the Betta will be moved to the 19l tank once it's ready and the mollys will be moved once the new 240l is setup and running smoothly. Clarified no new fish acquisitions until we have everything running smoothly for a couple of months.

He will be learning about the mechanics of the tanks (as will I) been reading about sumps most the afternoon before deciding on the tank to purchase.

I appreciate we made a rushed decision in acquiring the initial fish without enough research and I hope my decision to purchase the new tank sooner eases any concern about the duty of care we will take; I opted to take this route to reinforce our responsibility as the owner to ensure we provide a suitable environment despite our initial stumbles i don't want to walk away from that mistake.

I wanted to thank you for the responses we've received, I'll be studying up because this is the start of our adventure so I'm sure I'll have a million questions and I will take any advise on board.

We have also ran out of test strips so tomorrow will be acquiring a more advanced kit one that can provide more precise readings than the test strips.

 

[Byron]

You're heading in the right direction, good to hear.

On the test kit, the API Master Combo using liquid (not test strips) is probably the best for most of us. It has pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. These are useful for the first while, then pH and nitrate periodic tests can make sure things are fairly stable.

We still need to pin down the GH (general hardness). Can you find this on your water authority's website?

 

[InspiredDad]

Based on the 5-in-1 kit it's
Nitrate - 20ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
PH - 7-7.5
Kh - between 80-120
Gh - around 50-60

and yes we got the api master kit along with the supplies for the 19l so that is being setup today.

Now the other tank is clear would it be useful to take some of the water from the 64l to transfer the good bacteria?

 

[Byron]

Based on the 5-in-1 kit it's
Nitrate - 20ppm
Nitrite - 0ppm
PH - 7-7.5
Kh - between 80-120
Gh - around 50-60

and yes we got the api master kit along with the supplies for the 19l so that is being setup today.

Now the other tank is clear would it be useful to take some of the water from the 64l to transfer the good bacteria?

This is getting us to the mollies' issue. The water is way too soft for this fish. The GH (presumably this is in ppm [parts per million] or mg/l which is the same) of 50-60 ppm is 3 to 4 dGH which is very soft. No livebearers are going to be healthy in this water, so look to soft water fish of which there are many. Tetras, rasbora, most catfish...within these huge groups there are suitable and non-suitable considering temperament, behaviours, and tank size, but it gets you in the right direction.

The ammonia would have weakened the mollies even more, just for the record.

To the water question...no. There is absolutely no benefit in using water from an existing tank in a new tank, with one exception. If fish are going from one to the other it can sometimes benefit to do a partial water change in the new tank and use water from the existing rather than fresh. This can help acclimate the fish if the parameters are not reasonably similar. But this is rare when you are using the same source water. The beneficial bacteria live on surfaces, not in the water, so using a filter running on the established tank in the new tank will help seed the bacteria.

Byron.

 

[InspiredDad]

I checked via the local water authority and yeah soft is all I'm going to get, in order to make the tank more suitable for the existing fish I was reading up and it suggested getting marine salt. Not that I understand the science but it ups the iron etc in the water - is this something you've had any experience with or could recommend a suitable product (there's thousands of marine salts very overwhelming)

Used the new water testing kit ammonia is 0.25ppm so sizeable drop should clear up in next few days

 

[Byron]

I checked via the local water authority and yeah soft is all I'm going to get, in order to make the tank more suitable for the existing fish I was reading up and it suggested getting marine salt. Not that I understand the science but it ups the iron etc in the water - is this something you've had any experience with or could recommend a suitable product (there's thousands of marine salts very overwhelming)

Used the new water testing kit ammonia is 0.25ppm so sizeable drop should clear up in next few days

The Betta will be fine in your source water, so moving him into his own space is fine. As for the larger tank, the 240 liter, this could house mollies with an adjustment to the water (I'll explain this in a moment), but this will limit the fish choices. I assume there are three surviving mollies...but these fish have been seriously compromised and may not last long at this stage. Moving them immediately to say the store might help, so you have time to get the new tank cycled as I gather it is not even there yet. The existing 60 liter could hold the mollies for a while, again if you want these fish.

Now, to making water hard. Using marine salts is not the answer, though it can sort of work. Mollies do not need salt, they need hard minerals (calcium and magnesium primarily). These are the minerals that make water hard, as the minerals are dissolved into the water in the ground. Water is a tremendous solvent, meaning that it very readily takes up substances it comes into contact with. Pure water falls as rain and snow but from the moment it begins this descent it is taking up whatever it comes into contact with, which is why we have acid rain. Then it falls and it assimilates minerals from rock, organics from organic matter, etc. Your source water clearly does not come into contact with much in the way of mineralized rock. Mine here on the westcoast is similar, even more-so, at near zero GH.

The safest and easiest method to make aquarium water harder is to use a calcareous substrate composed of aragonite and crushed coral (both). You can buy these in fine gravel or sand, CarribSea is one manufacturer; many use them for rift lake cichlid tanks as these fish live in some of the hardest freshwater on the planet. You do not want the marine substrates which also contain salt (meaning sodium chloride, common salt) as no freshwater fish needs salt. I know it is frequently recommended for mollies, but this is a misunderstanding as to the fish's requirements, and something of a quick fix that doesn't last anyway if the calcium and magnesium are not being somehow provided.

Once you add the substrate, obviously it means you cannot have other fish except the hard water species. Of course, with considerable fussing the GH can be honed in to a lower level, but this is not that easy, believe me, and with mollies you still need it harder than you would for any other freshwater species, though the livebearers could manage. But you are restricting your options, so give it careful thought. I have gone down this road a couple times, but my fish room is now strictly soft water species which is a lot simpler when it comes to water changes, particularly emergency changes which do happen.

Byron.