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Panda Cory From Different Lfs Being Snubbed

clovis

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Hi all,
I wanted to buy 4 panda corys for my tank.  My LFS had only one left which they gave to me.  Being too impatient to wait for the LFS to get more pandas, I went to a different fish store and bought three more a few days later.  While the pandas seem to spend some time together and some time apart, I do notice that most of the time three are together and one apart.  Now I don't know for a fact that it is always the first one I was given, but I am pretty sure that  that is the case.
Does this tend to happen normally?  Do some fish from seperate batches have problems intergrating?  Should I be worried?
Thanks for your responses
 
Are you certain that they are both the same species?
 
I bought three Melini cories all from the same lfs and for several days two followed each other everywhere and one was just on it's own. It didn't seem bothered by it though. I've seen this before with young cories and it's just become normal. 
In general my lot come together at feeding time and then disburse off into different groups. The only ones that tend to keep to their own group is my bronzes but my panda's, melini and peppered lot tend to mix and match according to how they are feeling.
 
I'd say it's normal and absolutely nothing to worry about. Worry if the lone one isn't feeding ... a cory that doesn't like it's food isn't a well cory in my experience :)
 
Akasha72 said:
I bought three Melini cories all from the same lfs and for several days two followed each other everywhere and one was just on it's own. It didn't seem bothered by it though. I've seen this before with young cories and it's just become normal. 
In general my lot come together at feeding time and then disburse off into different groups. The only ones that tend to keep to their own group is my bronzes but my panda's, melini and peppered lot tend to mix and match according to how they are feeling.
 
I'd say it's normal and absolutely nothing to worry about. Worry if the lone one isn't feeding ... a cory that doesn't like it's food isn't a well cory in my experience
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If they are clearly the same species there is another explanation for the 'following' of cories, where the other is unfazed.

Males cories will follow females, in an effort to stimulate spawning, and during spawning. Many times, in larger shoals, 2, 3 or even more males will follow a single female. In your situation, you may have had 2 females and only 1 male. The male was the one following, while the disassociated cory, might be female and not worried about it.

Incidentally, when looking to spawn cories, the traditional ratio is 2m:1f, for best results.



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I once purchased 4 cories, which I thought were all the same species from different tanks (I assumed they were just different ages, and hence different sizes. Turned out that I had 3 C. leopardus and 1 C. trilineatus. The 4 would swim together at times, and at other times, the Trilly would hang out alone while the other 3 would remain together.

Some cories species are tough to ID separately, if you don't look very close or have a great deal of experience with them.

I can't think of another specie that I imagine would be confused with a panda corydoras, but that doesn't mean that there aren't some.
 
I did think that too eaglesaquarium, about the male/female thing but I'm basing my observations on age ... when very young they tend to be more interested in food and play - in my experience anyway. That said ... when I added the Melini's just after xmas (and they're still really young) one went straight up to one of my adult female panda's and did what I call 'the waggle dance' ... where the male in inviting spawning. My first thought was "well your a boy then!" ..... that then set me off researching whether my new melini's can interbreed with my panda's and apparently they can. This leads into what your saying about being sure of they are the same species. 
It is possible that one isn't a 'full panda' and is a hybrid. Either way I still wouldn't be worried about one being on it's own. I see lone cories sifting for food several times a day whist a large group rest on the sand. I think it's just the nature of cories :)
 
In fact my tank lights have just come on and I can see two melini sifting for food together ... the third is nowhere to be seen. He/she is probably resting in the plants somewhere or it might be playing with my youngest panda somewhere. 
 
I see nothing to worry about, clovis.  As Akasha said, if they are all feeding, likely not an issue.
 
On the shoaling (schooling) behaviour, numbers of fish can clearly factor into this, but I have found that some species tend to remain more together while others may rarely be together.  I have 12 or 13 species in my 115g, with close to 40 fish in the group.  I try to acquire 5-6 of a species, but for various reasons this is not always possible.  My group of five pandas, from two different acquisitions, tend to remain together much more than any other species.  And this is most obvious when they are playing up on the one end wall in the fairly strong current from the filter, something none of the other cory species ever do in this 5-foot tank.
 
I have four C. duplicareus and four C. sterbai in this tank, and I frequently see a male C. duplicareus nosing around a female C. sterbai, sometimes quite energetically.  Both these species also tend to stay relatively close within their own species, by which I mean I can generally see all four of each slightly separated in the same half of the tank, so not a close bond by any stretch.  But my two C. metae [got the last two they had, five years ago] are almost never together, or in the same area of the tank even.
 
There are varying opinions, all with validity, as to whether or not species should be mixed in the same tank, but over a period of some 20 years doing this I have not seen adverse effects.  One does have to be vigilant about cross-spawning, which is obviously more likely to occur among the genetically more closely-related species; the main concern here is not releasing any crosses to the hobby.  While I have had fry occasionally in this tank, when an egg has managed to survive predation, I always retain them.  Some species are highly unlikely to cross, as they are not genetically closely related as much as others.  According to recent research (Britto, Alexandrou & Taylor, etc), there may well be nine distinct genera within the Corydoradinae family which presently has only two genera, Aspidoras and Corydoras; Brochis has already been accepted as invalid and assimilated into Corydoras, though the irony is that when the phylogenetic work is done, Brochis will be resurrected as a distinct genus though with some new (present Corydoras) species included.
 
Byron.
 
Wow.
Fascinating insight and input here.
Thanks all for the information and edumacation on the subject.  Truly interesting.  
I don't know of they are different species, as they were all sold as Cory Pandas, and I have had a good look at them and can't tell any difference.  Will go with the explanation of sex and loose schooling of the fish then.
Cheers, and thanks for the good read
Clovis
 
glad to have been some help
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Incidently you may like to know that cories do better in slightly larger groups ... the recommended is 6 but as I'm unaware of your tank size or if you have any other cories I'm not going to suggest you rush out and buy some more!
 
I'm heading out today to the lfs in the hope they have now got some more melini cories in stock as the three I bought were the last 3 in the tank. I've not been too concerned about the odd number as I have lots of cories of different species and so the melini's havn't been lonely. In the wild cories live in large groups - safety in numbers - and so I've tried to replicate that in my tank.
 
 
Regarding the info on interbreeding Byron (which was useful and interesting) - I have told my lfs about the possibility of me getting some hybrid cories and as I really don't want any more panda's they have still offered to take them in. One staff member said no problem, they can go into our display tank but the other made a valid point that I wanted to share ... If they can interbreed in a fish tank they can interbreed in the wild. We can't possibly know if that is where all the different cory types have come from and we all get excited about wild caught fish... happily paying much more money because it's a species caught in the wild that we've never seen before - how do we know if it's a new species or a hybrid? .... something to think on maybe?
smile.png
 
Regarding the info on interbreeding Byron (which was useful and interesting) - I have told my lfs about the possibility of me getting some hybrid cories and as I really don't want any more panda's they have still offered to take them in. One staff member said no problem, they can go into our display tank but the other made a valid point that I wanted to share ... If they can interbreed in a fish tank they can interbreed in the wild. We can't possibly know if that is where all the different cory types have come from and we all get excited about wild caught fish... happily paying much more money because it's a species caught in the wild that we've never seen before - how do we know if it's a new species or a hybrid? .... something to think on maybe?
 
 
Before I respond to your question about the species, I must say that it is sad to hear that your store is willing to take in possible hybrids; this is something that we as hobbyists should never condone or encourage.  Keeping pure strains of fish is extremely important biologically, environmentally and ecologically.  Although not likely to be needed in the case of panda corys, there are other species of tropical fish that are extinct or close to extinction in nature, and aquarium fish could well be the source of re-introduced species.  It is one thing to confine experimental hybrids to one's aquarium, but quite another matter to release it to the hobby.  Enough on that, now to your species.
 
Hybridization among corys in their habitats is very probably non-existent.  For one thing, the species rarely mix, and even when they are known to, cross-breeding has never been documented.  When we confine fish to the very small and enclosed space of an aquarium, they can be affected in ways that would absolutely never occur naturally.  Sometimes the offspring are sterile, which is one way of nature telling us it is not "natural," as such fish would never survive in the wild but die out.  But in terms of geography, many species of cory, especially those now being discovered for the first time, are endemic to one specific stream or creek, and found no where else.  Each of these species descended from ancestors, and this is where we get into phylogenetics.  As for the many species, this is an example of Darwin's discovery of natural selection at work.  And it is occurring with many different Amazonian species besides corys.  You can be assured that these new species are not hybrids, and phylogenetic analysis confirms this.
 
Phylogenetic analysis became possible after the discovery of DNA in (I believe) the 1970's, and over the past two or three decades has become more and more standard as part of the process in describing species.  Phylogeny is sometimes referred to as the natural relationships and is an attempt to construct the history of all life based on the evidence from both living and fossil organisms. This allows us to trace a fish back to its original ancestor.  Fishbase lists 159 valid species in the genus Corydoras, and new species are being discovered and described regularly.  Phylogenetic analysis allows ichthyologists to ascertain just where each of these species fits.
 
A genus (plural genera) is a grouping of one or more species that share identical properties.  Prior to the discovery of DNA and development of phylogenetics, ichthyologists used physical characteristics to classify species into genera.  Dentition was a major factor, along with fin ray numbers, internal physiological characteristics such as bone structure, and so forth.  Outward appearance was considered but was often of less importance.  Thinking only of corys, all species in the genera Aspidoras, Corydoras and Brochis have the same general appearance, and they also share a number of identical characteristics beyond this.  These genera are thus classified in a family, here known as the Callichthyidae [family names always end in "dae"].  But because there are many other species that share these characteristics but also have significant variances, the family was divided into subfamilies, and our corys and their closest cousins are in the subfamily Corydoradinae [subfamilies end in "nae"].
 
With the benefit of phylogenetics, we now see that some of these fish are not so closely related, in spite of their general outward appearance, but certain others are.  Thus, we have suggestions that instead of three genera, there should be nine.  Brochis as I mentioned previously has already been invalidated as a distinct genus.  In spite of their different physical characteristics--"brochis" fish are larger with a rather higher profile, and the dorsal on the three Brochis species has between 10 and 18 rays, while on all "corydoras" species it has 6 to 8 rays--the three species are now Corydoras.  As you can see, in the new classification these outward physical characteristics are not of prime significance in classification.
 
The present genus Corydoras with its 159 species is termed polyphyletic because all of the species did not descend from the same common ancestor, and conversely all of the descendants of an individual ancestor are not included.  Classification now aims for monophyletic genera, which is a taxon (group of organisms) that forms a clade, meaning that it consists of an ancestral species and all its descendants.
 
The variety of "cory" species, many having very similar colour patterns, all evolved independantly from some ancestor.  Allopatric speciation, also termed geographic speciation, occurs when populations of a species become isolated, to the degree that influences or prevents genetic interchange.  Distinct species, or sometimes subspecies, may occur; or the species may remain basically intact genetically and form variants.  This has occurred with many fish, especially those that have a widespread range.  The Blackwing Hatchetfish, Carnegiella marthae, is now known to have at least three cryptic species, but further sampling will be required before ichthyologists can be certain these are variants (as presently held), subspecies or distinct species.  This is what seems to have occurred with many of the species now being discovered as collectors enter areas of the rainforest previously never explored, at least for fish.
 
This has been lengthy, but feel free to question and I will do my best.
 
Byron.
 

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