P. Signifer - Surface Breathing

[KLKELLY]

I didn't realize it but I had a faulty filter and there was little filtration probably over three days (I noticed the low was weaker and investigated and assumed the water level was too high. Filter stopped working completely at one point but for probably 14 hours). 3" bubble wall for aeration. I found one little guy dead a couple of mornings ago. I replaced the filter - packed it full of cycled media and hope I prevented a crash.

The problem now is the fish are all acting off. I have 9 p.signifer rainbows. Ammonia 0, Nitrate 0, NitrIte 0, PH 8.0 and Temp 75. I've done two three gallon water changes - last night and this morning using distilled water. I've added prime and a small carbon pack to the AC filter. Its a 20 gallon tank with potted plants.

The symptoms I'm seeing now is about six of them are hanging out at the very top. One of them has redness on one gill cover. They have lost a lot of their colour over two days.

I'm new to tropicals (have 3 fancy goldfish who are much hardier in a 40 gallon tank). I know Signifers can handle salt. Would this be what you guys recommend? Except for the one surface breathing with the red gill area I don't see any other outward signs on any of them - no signs of flashing either.

I would love some advice. I don't want to lose any of them.

Karrie

 

[KLKELLY]

I've decided to add 1/2 dose of quick cure because I'm leaning towards this being bacterial and not parasitic - the filter breaking down probably led to this happening

I can't find much info on treating these tiny little guys so hopefully they tolerate it well.

Karrie

 

[WILDER]

What was your stats when the filter packed in, goldifsh are massive waste producers.
How many fish do you have in that tank.
Red gill can be due to poor water quality, and being pale is a sign of stress.

 

[KLKELLY]

The tank is 20 gallons with just 9 small signifer rainbows about an inch each or smaller.

NitrAtes are zero (have been since I added the fish ten days ago - they are fed a small amount of flakes once a day) and it has six mid sized potted plants - NitrItes are zero, temp is 75. Ph was a high 8.4 but I have brought that down over two days to 8.0 and plan to bring it down over a few more days to either 7.8 or 7.5. The water now is as close to perfect as it can get (except for PH not being ideal). i'm hoping the tank doesnt restart a cycle - there is no way these small things could handle it.

I'm sure the filter being off and just the bubble wall for aeration is the reason they are not doing so well. I'm so new at small tropicals I wasn't prepared with what to do if they started getting ill. I don't think it's parasitic - they are still eating and they aren't flicking.

I also hear once they start surface breathing they are most likely gonners I hope I made a good call going with the quick cure instead of salt

(The goldfish tank also has great numbers, not overstocked, with weekly and mid week water changes and highly planted - definitely big pigs compared to the small rainbows thats for sure!)

What was your stats when the filter packed in, goldifsh are massive waste producers.
How many fish do you have in that tank.
Red gill can be due to poor water quality, and being pale is a sign of stress.

 

[WILDER]

I think you better research the goldfish as the first goldfish alone needs a 20gal, and then 10 gal for every other goldfish added, as they are massive waste producers and need excellent filters.
Sorry ignore that the goldifsh are in a 40gal that ok then.

Sounds like gill flukes then if water quality is fine, any signs of flicking and rubbing.

http/article.dphnet.com/cat-02/flukes1.shtml

 

[KLKELLY]

I'll take a look at that link thanks. No flicking or flashing at all. Just lots of hovering and the surface breathing. Normally Signifers would be non stop swimmers - they seem to just be swimming in one place in the current right at the surface of the water. I know fish with gill problems often go to the surface. There should be more than enough oxygen in the tank with the AC filter, 3" bubble wall and the plants (no CO2 diffuser or anything). I wonder if the quickcure is contributing to this behaviour also. Darn I wish fish could talk

You are right about the goldfish. They grow like weeds too which is why I won't have more than three in the 40gallon. On the goldfish tank I have an AquaClear110 which does an amazing job. A good filter is a must with goldfish.

Off to check out that link.

Thanks again for the advice.

Karrie

It looks like I might have made a good decision to go with the quickcure then. That is exactly what I'm seeing in the article - rapid breathing at the surface. I wish I had started treatment a couple of days ago.
The filter breaking probably caused the flukes to become worse quickly.

I only did 10 drops though.

Do you guys normally do a half dose for the small tetra species?

Thanks again.

Karrie

 

[WILDER]

Fine for the goldfish thought they was in the same tank.
Are there any small bubbles on the fish.

 

[KLKELLY]

I lost my post - sorry if this is a duplicate. I don't see any signs of bubbles on them. What would this be a sign of?

Also - what do you recommend for a quickcure dosing schedule? I only did 1/2 of the dose on the bottle because these guys are so small.

Thanks again.

Karrie

Fine for the goldfish thought they was in the same tank.
Are there any small bubbles on the fish.

 

[WILDER]

Sometimes small bubbles on fish can mean whitespot is about to break out, just wanted to check.
Get a med that treats for gill and skin flukes, good luck.

 

[KLKELLY]

Hey Wilder - I need your advice. All seven remaining Signifer rainbows are still alive but they aren't doing the best. They are so pale! I think all but one is eating great.

One is surface breathing right now (its first thing in the morning). More of them have red gills. Someone was saying stress alone could cause breathing distress and red gills -I'm still wondering if its something else.

I know their biggest problem probably is stress. I've been doing small water changes. Water was perfect until yesterday (had it tested day before at LFS just to give me a comfort level that my tests were accurate - 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrate). I removed half of the plants day before yesterday hoping this would lessen morning surface breathing. I probably reduced the tanks ability to deal with ammonia and Nitrates. Ammonia was at .15//20 yesterday evening before a 10% water change. I use Prime to detoxify ammonia. I have two ammonia alert cards on the tank too - I worry at any sign of ammonia. Stats yesterday - ammonia .15/.2, Nitrates 2.5 (best guess), Nitrites 0, PH is 7.8, temp 75. Salt is probably at 5 tsp in the 20 gallon. Did a 10% water change last night after tests.

I really feel like I should be treating the red gills. I am on the fence because I know treatment can be more harmful. Is there anything I can do for these guys? I've done two doses of prazi before but the red gills I think are more than stress because I've been keeping the water perfect and ammonia has never been at toxic levels. (Prime is used at any sign of ammonia - and with water change water).

Can they handle a bit more salt? Would you treat at this point - and with what? Its been over a week since the first symptoms (remember I had filter issues and at one point it was off completely for for at least 12 hours - up to 24). Added new filter repacked with cycled media.

Its a tough line - treating them vs. keeping water 100% and just watching. Looking for your input.

Thanks Wilder.

Karrie

 

[WILDER]

Do the goldfish have flukes as it would be easy to do this on a goldfish.
Remove a fish from the tank, wet a clean cloth in tank water, wrap the fish in the cloth.
Sterlise some tweezers before you remove the fish, then gently pull back the gill flap and with a magifying glass take a look to see if you can see a parasite.
Gill flukes are very hard to get rid of.

 

[KLKELLY]

The goldfish are in another tank but I did steal some of their filter media for the signifers tank - I think they were showing problems before this. They are still doing the stressed out behaviour - wall riding etc. I'm really most worried about the two that are worse off. I guess the remaining seven still being alive is a good sign all in all.

I'm working with the folks on theGAB.org to help with my goldfish. I've checked their gills but can't get a good enough look. They are yawning but no other symptoms. I'm thinking its gill flukes. Their water is good also. I can say the goldfish gills look very healthy from what I can see. I lost a baby oranda suddenly this morning - he had a deformed mouth when I got him. No signs of any problems whatsoever until this morning - it was extremely sudden and totally unexpected. I watch them like hawks.

 

[WILDER]

Look under flukes.
Well the options are striping the tank down like I did and then add the med.
The other option is to get the big guns out in meds.
http/www.goldfishinfo.com/ailment1.htm#skin

http/www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/potass...ermanganate.htm

 

[KLKELLY]

I'm debating whether to euthenize two of them. (six left).

The worst off one - has been face to the surface for a few days. He's no longer actively swimming. He doesn't seem to use his body at all. Does this normally mean they are too tired and too far gone?

The other one - swim bladder issues. She's stuck at the top and uses her fins to keep balance. She's often on her side trying to right herself. I don't think she is eating well.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. (Water is perfect - 0 ammonia, 0 nitrate, 0 nitrite)

Karrie

 

[WILDER]

I agree there on there last legs, there weak and exhausted.