Over the back or canister filter?

[Jan Cavalieri]

Overfeeding is cruel? It's certainly wasteful but I wouldn't call it cruel. I have community tanks for the most part and want to make sure all fish get food without having it stolen from them. Overfeeding is guilt plain and simple.

We do a 75% water change weekly on our larger tanks (monthly on the 6 gallon - no algae problem there). The very worst algae is in the two 29 gallon tanks, now the 50 gallon is starting to get it. I have assorted plecos in all the tanks, rarely do I see them eat the algae, but when they do they don't make a dent in it. I believe I've been over feeding since I first got the aquariums almost 2 yrs ago. Part of the problem is that I have several fish that will not come out at feeding time but will eat the remainder of the food at night. I'm too the point where by morning, there is not any food left in the tank. I have real plants in all the tanks as well as floating moss and frogbit (that's what keeps clogging the filters)

I guess I was thinking with an external canister filter it wouldn't get clogged up by all the frogbit but since it to has an intake hose, I'm sure it will get clogged too. I do need to shorten the amount o f time the lights stay on noon to 2 am is 12 hours - probably too long.

So with these additional facts do you think I should at least try and go with an external canister filter? Maybe for just one of the tanks for now? I don't expect it to take care of the algae (the algae kink of confuses the issue. I don't want to hate it - it's too expensive of an investment if it's just going to clog all the time like a HOB filter does.

Oh another problem is that I have two Dojo's in each of the larger tanks. They eat algae too but what they really like is snails therefore I have no snails to eat alge either. I won't give up my Dojo's -they make life worth living.

 

[eatyourpeas]

I am very happy with my canister filter, but have not tried HOB so can't really be of help there.

It is a cleaner look since it is hidden from view, and very quiet.

 

[utahfish]

Am I the only person on the planet that has lights on 14 hours a day? Haha

I don't have algae overgrowth. When the temp goes up, it grows like crazy, but, at 78/79 degrees, it's minimal. I have plecos that take care of what does grow without issue.

It's just odd to me that people only have their lights on like 7 hours a day. The sun shines longer than that in tropical climates, so, in trying to recreate that environment, you kinda need to replicate the lighting as well as temp and whatever else.....

While light does shine for 12 hours a day the intensity that light shines is different throughout the day. Most aquarium lights run at about 6500K, which is considered natural daylight. Problem is plants in nature don't get light at 6500k all 12 hours as 6500 K is usually noon time. Before and after noon it is lower with more blues in the mornings and more yellows at dusk. If one has a fancy aquarium light that replicates this cycle than cool. Not to mention nutrients in natural water ways are constant on the move where as in a home tank they are static until one does a water change. Plants don't need 8 hours of continue light to photosynthesize they can take it in increments while algae needs 8 continuous hours of light to grow. So either breaking up ones light cycle or keeping it under 8 hours will limit algae growth.

 

[Essjay]

Jan, you've mentioned your dojo loaches a lot - are they the same as weather loaches, as google suggests?

Misgurnus anguillicaudatus – Oriental Weather Loach — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

According to Seriously fish they are not algae eaters, they are a predator which eats insect larvae, small crustaceans etc.

 

[Utar]

When it comes to algae problems as others have said it is an unbalance in both nutrients and light. Having said that in my personal opnion on which one HOB or External Canister for what tank it comes down to tank size.

For me tanks 40 gallon size and below is ok for a HOB, tanks 55 gallon and up should use an external canister filter. It all comes down to how much water is being pushed in and out of the tank through the filter cleaning, and bio media needs. A person could use HOBs for a 100 gallon tank, but you would need at least two too three to do the job, but purchasing that many HOB's cost as much or more then one cheap canister. Also mantenence time spent cleaning several HOBs would be just as much time needed to clean one canister fliter and still a person would not get the cleaning power or bio-media capacity out of several HOBs as one can get in just one canister. But this is all just my opinion.

 

[raylove]

I disagree with Utahfish, I believe plants do require a regular lighting cycle and will suffer if you supply it in increments. It doesn't need to be perfect as it wouldn't be in nature, but it can't be haphazard.
Overfeeding is the main issue here however and there is no point putting in extra food 'for later'. If you place dried food in water, the nutrients start leaching out immediately, and after a few minutes all you have left is effectively a wafer with very little nutritional value. You have simply polluted the water which will lead to algae problems. If you have nocturnal fish buy specially formulated tablet food which maintains its integrity for longer and drop a couple in at lights out.
Bear in mind that 90% of the food we eat goes in heating our body and in fighting gravity i.e. standing up! Fish are cold blooded and have a swim bladder for bouyency so they need only a fraction of what we need. No need to feel guilty - less food and less, but more regular lighting is definitely the answer here. Good filtration is also essential and canister filters are the best but won't help until you fix the other issues.
Good luck!

 

[Jan Cavalieri]

To answer essjay - yes I have 6 "weather" loaches in three tanks, I got them originally to control a serious snail problem. I no longer have any snails so I guess that worked. I also have other kinds of loaches such as Kubotai Loach (I'm a fan) and mostly bristlenose plecos - the lemon yellow variety. I also have a Blue Phantom who I only see during water changes - he's my main night eater. I have a Thomasi L188a Pleco that I call "my Favorite Martian" - he activally does work on algae all the time but is too small to make a difference. I probably need aa few more Plecos.

Today I cleaned all three filters (my 6 gallon is fine) 2-3 time each. In all cases the intake tubes were all clogged with plant material - FROGBIT which grows like a weed and is responsible for 99% of my clogged intake tubes. But they provide such great floating coverage the fish love them - even some eat them. Would a canister filter be affected by this same problem? Then once I take care of the intake tubes sometimes I get lucky and water is restored but most of the time I have to take the basked out of the filter and find the entire bottom of the sponge and the gasket covered in slimy brown algae - I end up losing my good bacteria in the sponge but nothing can filter through a sponge covered in slime. Would a canister have a similar problem?

 

[mcordelia]

Hi @Jan Cavalieri I'm having a hard time following what the issue is here. Is the problem that is causing the filters to clog the algae or the frogbit? If the frogbit is a problem, you can make various different kinds of barriers that keep the plant out from the intakes, and possibly a sponge prefilter could also help (though it wouldn't prevent the frogbit from sticking to the prefilter).

On the other hand, if the problem is the algae, there have been a number of great suggestions in this thread for how to control it, are you implementing any of the suggestions?

If I were you, I would wait on buying the canister filter for now, since it doesn't sound like filtration itself is an issue in your tank, but it sounds like you have other issues that do need to be addressed. That doesn't mean that a canister filter might not be a good choice down the road, but I think you may be spending energy worrying about a canister filter when you should be spending energy figuring out how to either 1) prevent frogbit from getting into your filter intake or 2) how to control your algae problem.

What do you think?

 

[AbbeysDad]

A person could use HOBs for a 100 gallon tank, but you would need at least two too three to do the job, but purchasing that many HOB's cost as much or more then one cheap canister.

A pair of Aquaclear 70's or an Aquaclear 110 would work just fine.

Also mantenence time spent cleaning several HOBs would be just as much time needed to clean one canister fliter and still a person would not get the cleaning power or bio-media capacity out of several HOBs as one can get in just one canister.

Nay, Nay - I can clean my aquaclear HOB's without shutting them down in less than half the time it takes to drain and clean my canister filter.

If the frogbit is a problem, you can make various different kinds of barriers that keep the plant out from the intakes, and possibly a sponge prefilter could also help (though it wouldn't prevent the frogbit from sticking to the prefilter).

Yes! A coarse pre-filter on the inlet tube may make all the difference.

As to overfeeding, I say stop. Drop some food in at night when it's dark to take care of the nocturnal beasties.

 

[Utar]

A pair of Aquaclear 70's or an Aquaclear 110 would work just fine.


Nay, Nay - I can clean my aquaclear HOB's without shutting them down in less than half the time it takes to drain and clean my canister filter.


Yes! A coarse pre-filter on the inlet tube may make all the difference.

As to overfeeding, I say stop. Drop some food in at night when it's dark to take care of the nocturnal beasties.

I like HOBs, but can I see you really like HOBs and that's ok, but for me I like canisters for my larger tanks and HOB for my smaller tanks. Also my 55 gallon fits closer to the wall using a canister filter then I could ever get using HOB. I would have to do all the cut outs much larger in my lids, etc to accommodate HOB, especially two, then for just two in/out hoses. Really it doesn't take me that long to clean my canister, but then I don't have to as often as I would if I was using HOBs.

 

[Fishiemang]

As to the lighting...

There are options for this. I currently use Fluval Aquasky LED lighting. It has the ability to set them up for sunrise, daytime, sunset, night, sleep, and you can adjust all the colors of the spectrum. They are quite nice. Added bonus of doing this all via Bluetooth.

For florescent lighting, you can buy bulbs specific to what you want to do. This tech is old, but works. Can be put on timers. In essence, depending on how much into the hobby you are, you can recreate a pretty life-like lighting schedule here as well.

Plants will use whatever light is available. Remember tho...it's not the color (6500K blue or 4200k red), it's the PAR rating of the light. Plants use a little bit of each. Blue for veg/growth and red for bloom/flower. But going to the extremes of either 6500k or 4200k will limit growth. They do sell full spectrum, which is white to our eyes. These are usually general purpose plant lights.

As for static nutrients, this is not really true. While what is in the gravel in most cases is "static", but if you have a filter, your nutes are moving. Maybe not as broad an expanse as a lake or ocean, but, moving. Having too many in there with nothing to use it up is the issue. Slow growing.plants won't use them up as fast and fast growing species. You'll have more left over for algae to grow.

Overall. Build an eco system. There is everything needed to clean, build and.maintain the tank then. Feed sparingly. Keeps the nutes lower. Get cleaner species of fish and inverts. This is the ticket to solving any algae issue.

 

[AbbeysDad]

I like HOBs, but can I see you really like HOBs and that's ok, but for me I like canisters for my larger tanks and HOB for my smaller tanks.

I don't like most HOB's that use a cartridge - the cash cow for mfg's. I do like the Aquaclear design and have a few of them. I have two AC70's with AC50 impellers on my 60g, but also have an HW 304B canister filter (and a sump!) on my 110g stock tank! I can remove the media baskets and clean the media on the HOB's faster than I can pump the water out of the canister!

 

[Utar]

I don't like most HOB's that use a cartridge - the cash cow for mfg's. I do like the Aquaclear design and have a few of them. I have two AC70's with AC50 impellers on my 60g, but also have an HW 304B canister filter (and a sump!) on my 110g stock tank! I can remove the media baskets and clean the media on the HOB's faster than I can pump the water out of the canister!

I totally agree with you on Aquaclear HOB they are probably the best out there. I had a 50 with a cheap walmart brand on my 29 gallon and it worked great for three years no problems.

 

[Utar]

As to the lighting...

There are options for this. I currently use Fluval Aquasky LED lighting. It has the ability to set them up for sunrise, daytime, sunset, night, sleep, and you can adjust all the colors of the spectrum. They are quite nice. Added bonus of doing this all via Bluetooth.

For florescent lighting, you can buy bulbs specific to what you want to do. This tech is old, but works. Can be put on timers. In essence, depending on how much into the hobby you are, you can recreate a pretty life-like lighting schedule here as well.

Plants will use whatever light is available. Remember tho...it's not the color (6500K blue or 4200k red), it's the PAR rating of the light. Plants use a little bit of each. Blue for veg/growth and red for bloom/flower. But going to the extremes of either 6500k or 4200k will limit growth. They do sell full spectrum, which is white to our eyes. These are usually general purpose plant lights.

As for static nutrients, this is not really true. While what is in the gravel in most cases is "static", but if you have a filter, your nutes are moving. Maybe not as broad an expanse as a lake or ocean, but, moving. Having too many in there with nothing to use it up is the issue. Slow growing.plants won't use them up as fast and fast growing species. You'll have more left over for algae to grow.

Overall. Build an eco system. There is everything needed to clean, build and.maintain the tank then. Feed sparingly. Keeps the nutes lower. Get cleaner species of fish and inverts. This is the ticket to solving any algae issue.

Very good info I enjoyed reading it. I really wanted a Fluval Aquasky but could not afford one, so I had to settle for a Nicrew Classic. I got the extra timer that plugs in line with the power and it works good except for one problem. When the power goes out or I have to unplug it, then the timer looses its programming.

 

[seangee]

I got the extra timer that plugs in line with the power and it works good except for one problem. When the power goes out or I have to unplug it, then the timer looses its programming.

Are you sure? I have 4 of them. When I turn off one too many switch at water change time it loses the time (sets back to 0.00) but the program is retained.