Otocinclus owners - pls help

[Neonlights]

Btw, I did a 40% water change today and always do around 25% once a week without fail as well as vacuuming the sand.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Btw, I did a 40% water change today and always do around 25% once a week without fail as well as vacuuming the sand.

Are you able to test the water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrAtes?

What size is the tank?

When did you lose the betta?

Thanks - I did read up on them but the info on the site I visited was admittedly brief. I’m quite annoyed actually, I bought them from a reputable, specialist aquatic shop and asked if they’d suit my tank and was advised they would. I don’t want to return them to that shop as presumably they’ll sell them on to anyone. Any advice on rehousing fish?

Thanks for the advice. My tank only has 5 fish (the oto, 2 x false julii corys and 2 x dwarf petricolas), 5 shrimp and 3 assassin snails. It looks really bad now and also looks like he has internal bleeding in the mouth.

I wonder if I’d be able to save him at this stage tbh, as my last oto died within a day of the fungus getting this big. I don’t get it though, he was perfectly healthy 48hrs ago, what could have caused what appears to be bleeding? Presumably the fungus is secondary to this.

The fungus is a secondary infection from an initial injury. Without the betta in there, barring water quality issues,

the most likely cause is the synos. Those are fish that need a relatively big tank, and enough of a group (please don't take that stores advice again - synos, cories, and otos are all social fish that need to be in larger numbers than two, shouldn't all be mixed, and is way too many bottom dwellers with fish that can easily hurt them) so if they're the ones who helped you choose all the fish, they set you up to fail I'm afraid.

I don’t like adding chemicals and don’t really want to dose the tank with the NT Labs anti-fungus again, but if it could save him then I definitely would. Am at a loss what to do? The option of getting a QT tank together this afternoon and trying to catch the oto in a heavily planted tank is not an option (I don’t have access or funds for the whole set up).

As I said, without a QT set up, I still think the best chance for him is aquarium salt treatment, whether he's in isolation, or you treat the main tank.

Below, as
@Ichthys said:

Synodontis lucipinnis (“dwarf petricola”) needs to be in a group (6+) and in hard water. Shoaling fish in two’s are very likely to be aggressive due to the stress, and these are only ‘peaceful as Synodontis go’ which means likely to not be peaceful towards tiny fish like Otos (which need totally different water parameters).
With just two of them your Betta is also in a lot of danger. A heavily planted tank is also not their natural environment...

They're the most likely culprits for the initial injuries to your otos (and perhaps the betta passing). They're beautiful fish, but in the right numbers, with the right tank mates, and you've witnessed them swiping at your other fish yourself. The previous oto had an obvious injury that looked like a chunk of his tail was taken right down to the body, and it's likely what happened to cause an injury in this one too.

Once there's an injury of some kind, on any living thing, it's then vulnerable to secondary infections from things that are always in the tank, but usually harmless in smaller amounts and without that injury - fungal or bacterial infections. Those can take hold fast and kill the fish, as you found with the other oto.

Salt is the cheapest and most reliable anti-fungal/anti-bacterial in the hobby really. Mela and pimafix aren't great, I don't know the NT labs medication, so I can't say if it's any good or not. If you have nothing else, and don't want to do the salt water treatment, then out of the other options, I'd give the NT labs one a try. But my personal preference is salt water treatment. Then whether the oto makes it or not, really need to reconsider then restock the tank. Cories need groups of six or more, syndos in a pair don't work and will keep taking out your other fish, and you definitely don't want to restock just to have the same things happen again!

Sorry this is happening to you, it's rough. Hope the little oto makes it.

 

[Neonlights]

Are you able to test the water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrAtes?

What size is the tank?

When did you lose the betta?




The fungus is a secondary infection from an initial injury. Without the betta in there, barring water quality issues,

the most likely cause is the synos. Those are fish that need a relatively big tank, and enough of a group (please don't take that stores advice again - synos, cories, and otos are all social fish that need to be in larger numbers than two, shouldn't all be mixed, and is way too many bottom dwellers with fish that can easily hurt them) so if they're the ones who helped you choose all the fish, they set you up to fail I'm afraid.


As I said, without a QT set up, I still think the best chance for him is aquarium salt treatment, whether he's in isolation, or you treat the main tank.

Below, as
@Ichthys said:


They're the most likely culprits for the initial injuries to your otos (and perhaps the betta passing). They're beautiful fish, but in the right numbers, with the right tank mates, and you've witnessed them swiping at your other fish yourself. The previous oto had an obvious injury that looked like a chunk of his tail was taken right down to the body, and it's likely what happened to cause an injury in this one too.

Once there's an injury of some kind, on any living thing, it's then vulnerable to secondary infections from things that are always in the tank, but usually harmless in smaller amounts and without that injury - fungal or bacterial infections. Those can take hold fast and kill the fish, as you found with the other oto.

Salt is the cheapest and most reliable anti-fungal/anti-bacterial in the hobby really. Mela and pimafix aren't great, I don't know the NT labs medication, so I can't say if it's any good or not. If you have nothing else, and don't want to do the salt water treatment, then out of the other options, I'd give the NT labs one a try. But my personal preference is salt water treatment. Then whether the oto makes it or not, really need to reconsider then restock the tank. Cories need groups of six or more, syndos in a pair don't work and will keep taking out your other fish, and you definitely don't want to restock just to have the same things happen again!

Sorry this is happening to you, it's rough. Hope the little oto makes it.

Thanks for the advice again.

To answer your questions, the tank is 55 litres and ammonia, nitrates and nitrites are all showing as 0.

The betta died about 2 weeks ago and I was advised it was because of the hardness of the water.

I definitely have no intention of adding any more fish to the tank until things settle down and I’m able to rehouse the dwarf petricolas. I’ve been battling an outbreak of hair algae for the past few months and snails so I’d like to get a grip on those too.

I got a CO2 cannister system for Christmas (level checker shows that it’s perfect amount in the water btw) and my plants are all doing really well so I’m hoping the help the battle against the algae and I think the snails were a result of some overfeeding that I’ve corrected.

Is aquarium salt good for the assassin snails, corys and shrimp?

I’m really disappointed about the state of things. I would never have bought the petricola if I hadn’t been advised they’d be a good match for my tank and the tankmates. It’s actually quite depressing, my fish are dying and the petricolas, which I love watching, I have to get rid of. And if the water is what’s killed the betta, the whole reason I bought the tank I may give up. I don’t fancy just keeping white cloud mountain minnow or another nana fish.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I’m really disappointed about the state of things. I would never have bought the petricola if I hadn’t been advised they’d be a good match for my tank and the tankmates. It’s actually quite depressing, my fish are dying and the petricolas, which I love watching, I have to get rid of. And if the water is what’s killed the betta, the whole reason I bought the tank I may give up. I don’t fancy just keeping white cloud mountain minnow or another nana fish.

I understand, I do! Please don't give up yet. There's a lot of misinformation online, some stores/store employees give bad advice, when as a beginner it makes sense to trust them, then beginners wind up with a poorly stocked tank, throwing money away on fish and meds that don't work, have a disaster like you did through no fault of their own, and wind up giving up on the hobby.

You can successfully restock and have a lovely, healthy, thriving tank with fish that work together, and it doesn't have to be just boring WCMM's or something!


The synos were a bad suggestion from the store - even the dwarf ones get too large for a 55L tank, so need a larger tank and larger group number, plus suitable top-mid dwellers for a community tank, but they sold you on a betta (solitary fish) otos and cories (both social so need numbers, also shy and vulnerable to the synos) so you had too many bottom dwellers in a pretty small tank.

Please, don't give up! If you really want the synos, you'll need to larger tank, a few more of the same species of dwarf synos, and help to carefully choose what other fish can live with them that will work in the tank size and with your water hardness.

This hobby has a really steep learning curve at first, I know I almost gave up a few times when I went through my own tank problems when I started!! It sucks to go through these losses, and to find out the info you'd found/been told was bad, but it can be fixed, and you clearly invested a lot in this and want it to work! And it can.

Any pics of the tank and other fish you can share?
Also what kind of filter, and what's your usual tank maintenance?
Do you know the GH, KH and pH of your source water?

For reliable and accurate into on most any species you're likely to come across in the hobby, Seriously Fish is a really reliable, accurate website that will give you accurate info about specific fish. Remember that any random can write a blog, website, article, or on forums like this one (I'm just another hobbyist, far from expert, and get things wrong sometimes too! But there are also many brilliant hobbyists, specialists and long time aquatic experts here too!), so I recommend searching Seriously Fish for profiles on the fish you have, like the synos here:

Synodontis petricola (Dwarf Lake Synodontis, False Cuckoo Synodontis) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

Cories can usually tolerate aquarium salt for a course of treatment, but some are sensitive and will react poorly to it - and it's not great for shrimp, snails, scalefish fish, or plants either, but usually okay for the short term duration of treatment.

In this case, given how new you are and I don't know much the rest of your set up, but I assume you have a decent amount of time and money invested in the plants, shrimp and other fish, then as I said before, clean fresh water is the best first aid, then hope for the best for the oto.

If the synos are what you really want to keep, then a larger tank and group is needed I'm afraid But please don't despair and give up yet. There are lots of other fish you can keep in the tank you have, you can always return the synos, get some suggestions and carefully plan stocking for this current tank (and it may not have been the water that killed the betta) and other, just as entertaining and beautiful fish. Then plan for a larger dream tank with synos later down the line, once you've got more experience and have time/can plan and cater for them and their tankmates.

That's how most of us begin down the road of Multiple Tank Syndrome! So many fish in the hobby, can't keep them all together in the same kinds of set up, so wind up with additional tanks, future plans for dream tanks, etc!

@GaryE @Essjay @Seisage @MattW3344 @MaloK @Rocky998 @Colin_T - can you guys also help @Neonlights please? Not their fault they're in this mess, I don't want to overwhelm them with info, or get busy and not be able to help when they need it most!

 

[Neonlights]

I understand, I do! Please don't give up yet. There's a lot of misinformation online, some stores/store employees give bad advice, when as a beginner it makes sense to trust them, then beginners wind up with a poorly stocked tank, throwing money away on fish and meds that don't work, have a disaster like you did through no fault of their own, and wind up giving up on the hobby.

You can successfully restock and have a lovely, healthy, thriving tank with fish that work together, and it doesn't have to be just boring WCMM's or something!


The synos were a bad suggestion from the store - even the dwarf ones get too large for a 55L tank, so need a larger tank and larger group number, plus suitable top-mid dwellers for a community tank, but they sold you on a betta (solitary fish) otos and cories (both social so need numbers, also shy and vulnerable to the synos) so you had too many bottom dwellers in a pretty small tank.

Please, don't give up! If you really want the synos, you'll need to larger tank, a few more of the same species of dwarf synos, and help to carefully choose what other fish can live with them that will work in the tank size and with your water hardness.

This hobby has a really steep learning curve at first, I know I almost gave up a few times when I went through my own tank problems when I started!! It sucks to go through these losses, and to find out the info you'd found/been told was bad, but it can be fixed, and you clearly invested a lot in this and want it to work! And it can.

Any pics of the tank and other fish you can share?
Also what kind of filter, and what's your usual tank maintenance?
Do you know the GH, KH and pH of your source water?

For reliable and accurate into on most any species you're likely to come across in the hobby, Seriously Fish is a really reliable, accurate website that will give you accurate info about specific fish. Remember that any random can write a blog, website, article, or on forums like this one (I'm just another hobbyist, far from expert, and get things wrong sometimes too! But there are also many brilliant hobbyists, specialists and long time aquatic experts here too!), so I recommend searching Seriously Fish for profiles on the fish you have, like the synos here:

Synodontis petricola (Dwarf Lake Synodontis, False Cuckoo Synodontis) — Seriously Fish

www.seriouslyfish.com

Cories can usually tolerate aquarium salt for a course of treatment, but some are sensitive and will react poorly to it - and it's not great for shrimp, snails, scalefish fish, or plants either, but usually okay for the short term duration of treatment.

In this case, given how new you are and I don't know much the rest of your set up, but I assume you have a decent amount of time and money invested in the plants, shrimp and other fish, then as I said before, clean fresh water is the best first aid, then hope for the best for the oto.

If the synos are what you really want to keep, then a larger tank and group is needed I'm afraid But please don't despair and give up yet. There are lots of other fish you can keep in the tank you have, you can always return the synos, get some suggestions and carefully plan stocking for this current tank (and it may not have been the water that killed the betta) and other, just as entertaining and beautiful fish. Then plan for a larger dream tank with synos later down the line, once you've got more experience and have time/can plan and cater for them and their tankmates.

That's how most of us begin down the road of Multiple Tank Syndrome! So many fish in the hobby, can't keep them all together in the same kinds of set up, so wind up with additional tanks, future plans for dream tanks, etc!

@GaryE @Essjay @Seisage @MattW3344 @MaloK @Rocky998 @Colin_T - can you guys also help @Neonlights please? Not their fault they're in this mess, I don't want to overwhelm them with info, or get busy and not be able to help when they need it most!

Once again, thanks for taking the time to reply and help!

So, I first kept fish for a few years when I was young (around the age of 9/10 until 12ish - when I discovered the usual teenage hobbies!). That was a community tank and had all sorts in it. Then I gave up, had a betta for a summer at uni (before moving country and giving it up) and then about 20yrs ago I got back into fish keeping and had a 200 litre aquarium and Malawi cichlids. Super easy to care for, beautiful to watch and loads of character. Once again, I moved country so gave it up but once I settled in the UK I got a 300 litre aquarium, 2 Oscars and some clown loaches. Had this set up for a few years but we moved again and the tank ended up in the spare room and the only time I spent with it was when I was cleaning it so, regretably, I sold it.

Fast forward 15 years and lockdown happened and I bought a tiny nano tank and a betta for my son and got hooked on the hobby again. I boughy my current tank last July and sold my son’s tank and we keep this one in the kitchen so we can enjoy it throughout the day and it’s never a chore to clean as it’s next to the sink and running water! Stupidly though, I didn’t research the fish (which I always did previously) and went by the store’s advice. I’m not blaming them though, it’s totally my fault for not reading up myself and I own that and feel bad for the fish suffering. Also the reason I’m not restocking until it’s sorted.

And no shame in WCMM, but seriously, unless they’re flexing their fins they’re as dull as substrate

pH: 7.5
Hardness (GH): 17
Alkalinity (KH): 10 - 11

Here are some shots of the tank (I just trimmed and replanted some of the plants as they were sticking out of the water) I wonder if I have the drift wood too close to the filter inlet. The shop advised me it’s fine but…

 

[Neonlights]

If anyone else picks up on this thread, I’m wary to add salt because of the cories and shrimp but have NT Labs anti-white spot and fungus arriving this evening from Amazon, should I start treatment as I doubt the oto can eat right now because of the location of the growth?

 

[Neonlights]

And this is how it was last July, pre-synos and cories and snail infestation!!

I removed most of the stone as a cory lost its barbells and I thought it could be that and sadly I had to take out all the moss as it was engulfed in hair algae after I switched plant food and I’ve never been able to get rid of it.

 

[Seisage]

The NT labs medication along with salt will probably be the best option for treatment. You can dose the whole tank and it won't harm plants or snails, but it may harm shrimp, so be very careful to not overdose.

The problem is that fungal infections are very often secondary to bacterial infections. The bacterial infection is usually the real killer, so you must also treat that. I can't say for sure whether your oto has a bacterial infection, but fungus/water molds usually only attack tissue that's already diseased. If your oto does have a bacterial infection, without knowing what kind of bacteria it is, it's hard to recommend a treatment, and I also don't know what you have over there in the UK. Doxycycline is broad-spectrum though, so it's usually a solid bet. All antibiotics will kill off your beneficial bacteria though, so a quarantine tank is required unless you want to re-cycle your aquarium or you have seeded media ready to replace the dead media.

I would say start with the salt and NT labs treatments and see if that resolves things. If it doesn't, you might have to look into antibiotics. Sadly, if there is an underlying bacterial infection, survival rates are often low, but without knowing for sure whether bacteria are an issue, I can't really recommend going in with antibiotics straightaway. The salt may also help with any bacterial infections though.

Make sure to follow the directions on the NT Labs bottle closely. One thing to keep in mind is that while you're doing the NT Labs treatment, you shouldn't use water conditioners with sulfur compounds (e.g. Seachem Prime) since they can react with the formalin/malachite green and make the medication less effective.

 

[Neonlights]

The NT labs medication along with salt will probably be the best option for treatment. You can dose the whole tank and it won't harm plants or snails, but it may harm shrimp, so be very careful to not overdose.

The problem is that fungal infections are very often secondary to bacterial infections. The bacterial infection is usually the real killer, so you must also treat that. I can't say for sure whether your oto has a bacterial infection, but fungus/water molds usually only attack tissue that's already diseased. If your oto does have a bacterial infection, without knowing what kind of bacteria it is, it's hard to recommend a treatment, and I also don't know what you have over there in the UK. Doxycycline is broad-spectrum though, so it's usually a solid bet. All antibiotics will kill off your beneficial bacteria though, so a quarantine tank is required unless you want to re-cycle your aquarium or you have seeded media ready to replace the dead media.

I would say start with the salt and NT labs treatments and see if that resolves things. If it doesn't, you might have to look into antibiotics. Sadly, if there is an underlying bacterial infection, survival rates are often low, but without knowing for sure whether bacteria are an issue, I can't really recommend going in with antibiotics straightaway. The salt may also help with any bacterial infections though.

Make sure to follow the directions on the NT Labs bottle closely. One thing to keep in mind is that while you're doing the NT Labs treatment, you shouldn't use water conditioners with sulfur compounds (e.g. Seachem Prime) since they can react with the formalin/malachite green and make the medication less effective.

That’s great, thanks!

If you look at the photo of the oto, his mouth is red (which I’ve never seen before) so I’m guessing it’s bleeding. I’ll treat with the NT Labs as it worked brilliantly on a cory that had a small spot of fungus before but I’m not too hopeful he’ll make it. If he dies mid-treatment I’ll do a 50% water change.

Also, whilst treating, I’ll switch off the CO2 and add an airstone.

 

[Essjay]

pH: 7.5
Hardness (GH): 17
Alkalinity (KH): 10 - 11

If those measurements for GH and KH are in dH rather than ppm, you have pretty hard water so you need to avoid all soft water fish, and I'm afraid that includes bettas, cories and otos. If you really want soft water fish, you need to soften your tap water by mixing it with pure water such as RO (reverse osmosis) to lower the GH. Synos do need hard water though.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

You have a lot more experience than I thought, and successfully had much larger tanks, so that's a relief!

Yes, water is too hard for bettas and most cory species, although a few, like sterbai's, bronzes and schwartzi can take harder than most, that's still a bit out of range for them... however, you can buy RO water from the store and do a mix to soften the tank slightly for them, install RO unit (expensive and wasteful of water), or do as I do if in a relatively unpolluted area, and collect rainwater. I use a 50/50 mix of rainwater and my harder tapwater for my small tank that has softer water species, like my otos and pygmy cories).

Think of the tank as a nano tank, because it basically is, and our options are more limited with hard water, plus a smaller tank (as you know, hard water great for cichlids, rainbowfish, livebearers - but most of those species need larger tanks, or they can be a bit boring/beginner, or overbreed wildly, like the livebearers.

But don't despair! The set up is stunning, plants look amazing (I'm jealous of the alternanthera, I can never keep that alive in my low-tech tanks, let alone so beautifully red!) and there are a lot of other unexpected options out there! Take a look at @Wills post history and journal threads, he also has hard water, some nano tanks, does a lot of research and is knowledgeable about potential species and GH ranges that are found in harder water, and happens to do beautiful aquascapes too.

Take a look at the dwarf rainbow species - some beautiful, tiny but stunning and active psuedomugli, or for the lower level, check out something like rosey loaches! Don't have the wow factor of clown or other botiid loaches, but have an appeal all of their own, can work in hard water and small tanks, and active, busy fish!

There are options, it doesn't have to be boring, and it's a stunning tank! Just rough that you're a harder water area and got some bad advice from the store.

Or if you want to go for RO water/rainwater and keeping soft water fish, then there are even more options available to you.

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Use a bottle brush to manually remove hair algae as much as possible, as often as possible, and hopefully between manual removal, possibly increasing the flow, and the growing plants, the hair algae will be outcompeted soon!

 

[Neonlights]

Use a bottle brush to manually remove hair algae as much as possible, as often as possible, and hopefully between manual removal, possibly increasing the flow, and the growing plants, the hair algae will be outcompeted soon!

Thanks, I’ve been attacking it at least every other day with a toothbrush that does a pretty good job of clearing it out but it just keeps coming. I’m telling myself it’s a phase and once the CO2 does its stuff and the plants get stronger, I will win!

 

[Neonlights]

So, any idea what the redness is on my oto?

 

[Neonlights]

You have a lot more experience than I thought, and successfully had much larger tanks, so that's a relief!

Yes, water is too hard for bettas and most cory species, although a few, like sterbai's, bronzes and schwartzi can take harder than most, that's still a bit out of range for them... however, you can buy RO water from the store and do a mix to soften the tank slightly for them, install RO unit (expensive and wasteful of water), or do as I do if in a relatively unpolluted area, and collect rainwater. I use a 50/50 mix of rainwater and my harder tapwater for my small tank that has softer water species, like my otos and pygmy cories).

Think of the tank as a nano tank, because it basically is, and our options are more limited with hard water, plus a smaller tank (as you know, hard water great for cichlids, rainbowfish, livebearers - but most of those species need larger tanks, or they can be a bit boring/beginner, or overbreed wildly, like the livebearers.

But don't despair! The set up is stunning, plants look amazing (I'm jealous of the alternanthera, I can never keep that alive in my low-tech tanks, let alone so beautifully red!) and there are a lot of other unexpected options out there! Take a look at @Wills post history and journal threads, he also has hard water, some nano tanks, does a lot of research and is knowledgeable about potential species and GH ranges that are found in harder water, and happens to do beautiful aquascapes too.

Take a look at the dwarf rainbow species - some beautiful, tiny but stunning and active psuedomugli, or for the lower level, check out something like rosey loaches! Don't have the wow factor of clown or other botiid loaches, but have an appeal all of their own, can work in hard water and small tanks, and active, busy fish!

There are options, it doesn't have to be boring, and it's a stunning tank! Just rough that you're a harder water area and got some bad advice from the store.

Or if you want to go for RO water/rainwater and keeping soft water fish, then there are even more options available to you.

Thanks for the recommendations, I’ll check them out! Yeah, the city I live in is known for its hard water. I actually collect rain water for my Venus Flytrap so that is an option.

The alternanthera is doing really well; I have to keep cutting it and replanting it as it grows out of the water. I’m hoping it will help with my battle against the hair algae!