Oranda Looks Sick Red Veins On Tail Fin?

[LRPRESTO]

Hi I have a red cap oranda That just doesn't look right. For about a week or so most of my fish have been hanging out at the bottom of the fish tank. They did this one other time and when we did a water change and moved their stuff around they all seemed better and didn't do it again until about a week ago. This time I am noticing the red veins on its tail (now the red veins are gone but the tail looks orange and so does its face.) The other fish are still hanging out at the bottom too with the exception of my other red cap oranda that swims around for a while then "rests" by floating at the top in the corner by one of the filters.This is dispite the water change we did two days ago. I put Jungle brand Fungus Clear in the tank yesterday and have beem feeding them Jungle brand Anti-Bacteria Medicated Food (it says it works for red streaks on fins and body) and you can use them both together. I'm not sure what else to do for them. I took out the filters for now because the Fungus Clear says to do so for five days (it's just one dose that says will work over five days) my tank stats are : Ammonia-0, Nitrate- 5.0, Nitrite-0 Ph-6.8 I have an Emporer 280 and a Whisper 30-60 filter along with an under gravel filter with a submersable. I use Amquel and Nov Aqua for water changes. Any help is apprecated!
Its a 50 gallon tank with a perlscale (that I think I see a few red streaks on now that I'm looking again) Two red cap orandas, and an orange oranda

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

How larger water changes are you doing and do you dechlorinate the new water that goes into the tank? Do you make sure that the temp of the new water is similar to that of the water in the tank? How often do you clean the filter in the tank and how do you go about it exactly? Plus how often do you clean the substrate in the tank?

Septicemia is an internal bacterial infection however it is almost always a stress-related illness that is caused by some stress the fish is experiencing in the tank. Sudden changes in tank temp, unstable water quality, lack of water changes or cleaning of the tank in general, over-stocking etc are all things which can trigger septicemia.
It is not right that your goldfish are hanging around the bottom of the tank so much after every water change, i suspect that you are damaging the beneficial bacteria in the tank that keeps the water quality stable in one way or another by making a mistake with how you go about doing the water changes in the tank and that it is unstable water quality problems that the tank suffers after the water changes that is making the goldfish act the way they do and that has brought about the septicemia in your goldfish, so its important to make sure you are doing everything right with the tank maintanence/cleaning etc .

For more info on how water quality works in tanks, see this link;

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=10099

.

 

[LRPRESTO]

We do a 25% water change every 2 weeks and we use 5 galon pails (new pails only used for the fish that are clean) I put one half tsp of NovAqua Plus and one half tsp of AmQuil plus. The fish get better AFTER the water change, they hang out at the bottom BEFORE the water change. I check the filters weekly and usually change one at a time not all at once because I don't want to throw off the ecosystem. I tend to change them every three weeks (one of the three filter systems with at least a week inbetween before changing the next filter) I siphen the gravel really good when I do the water changes (Getting lots of poopies out!) I use a thermometer to make sure the temp is almost exactly what the temp is in the tank (which is 72 degrees)
Today they all seem to be swimming around a lot more like they usually did before they started looking sick but I am concerned because both red capped orandas are more orange than white. Yet they are both more active than usual (swimming normally, not darting or shimming)
I know a little something about water quality, I did a lot of research on it before I became a fish owner. I've had these fish over a year now and I'd hate to see them die on me now. I don't know that water quality is the problem here. My water stats are great and Amquli removes nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, clorine and chloramines. NovAqua is a water conditioner as well that adds echinacea, vitamins and anti-virus protection along with detoxifying tap water and breaking down chloramines. This last change I added a tsp of aquarium salt in hopes it will act as a stress reducer and help with any diseases they may have.
I hope this is the information you are looking for. Thank you for your help, and caring about fish so much! I appreciate your inout! Have a great day! Happy New Year!!

 

[Mr._Fishy]

You really shouldn't be changing the filter media that often. If it is beginning to clog, just rinse it off. Most people will say to rinse it off with tank water, but I always just rinse it of with the water that comes out of the bathtub tap. It is the only way I can get off all the gunk, and I have never had any negative side effects occur. I have never kept goldfish, so I don't really know how often to change the water, but I would imagine that doing about 25% weekly would help quite a bit. Also, are you sure your nitrates are 5.0, not your nitrites? I haven't seen a test kit that reads nitrates that low and that accurately.


HTH,
Ryan

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

You really shouldn't be changing the filter media that often. If it is beginning to clog, just rinse it off. Most people will say to rinse it off with tank water, but I always just rinse it of with the water that comes out of the bathtub tap. It is the only way I can get off all the gunk, and I have never had any negative side effects occur. I have never kept goldfish, so I don't really know how often to change the water, but I would imagine that doing about 25% weekly would help quite a bit. Also, are you sure your nitrates are 5.0, not your nitrites? I haven't seen a test kit that reads nitrates that low and that accurately.


HTH,
Ryan

You should never wash out the filter sponges in tap water because tap water contains chlorine which kills off the beneficial bacterial in the filters sponges- also you shouldn't be aiming to clean all of the gunk out of the sponges either, just removing enough so the filter runs smoothely, as the gunk provides a food/ammonia source for your beneficial bacteria to live off and cleaning the filters so they are sparkling clean will cause great shock to your beneficial bacteria and will kill a great deal of it off. This is why people recommend cleaning the filter sponges only in old tank water that has been taken out of the tank, because such water doesn't contain chlorine and is least likely to cause shock to your beneficial bacteria .

A water change of 25-30% once a week is good for most goldfish tanks, however sometimes doing up to 60% water changes once a week is needed since goldfish are such high waste producing fish in comparison to a lot of other fish.

You can get water quality test kits that read as low os 5 nitrates or less, the Master brand test tube ones are very accurate test kits and can read very low numbers of all kinds of stats.

In an established tank, nitrites and ammonia should be 0 at all times, and nitrates should preferably be between 1 and 40 . If a tank had 5 nitrites i would be very worried.

 

[Tokis-Phoenix]

We do a 25% water change every 2 weeks and we use 5 galon pails (new pails only used for the fish that are clean) I put one half tsp of NovAqua Plus and one half tsp of AmQuil plus. The fish get better AFTER the water change, they hang out at the bottom BEFORE the water change. I check the filters weekly and usually change one at a time not all at once because I don't want to throw off the ecosystem. I tend to change them every three weeks (one of the three filter systems with at least a week inbetween before changing the next filter) I siphen the gravel really good when I do the water changes (Getting lots of poopies out!) I use a thermometer to make sure the temp is almost exactly what the temp is in the tank (which is 72 degrees)
Today they all seem to be swimming around a lot more like they usually did before they started looking sick but I am concerned because both red capped orandas are more orange than white. Yet they are both more active than usual (swimming normally, not darting or shimming)
I know a little something about water quality, I did a lot of research on it before I became a fish owner. I've had these fish over a year now and I'd hate to see them die on me now. I don't know that water quality is the problem here. My water stats are great and Amquli removes nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, clorine and chloramines. NovAqua is a water conditioner as well that adds echinacea, vitamins and anti-virus protection along with detoxifying tap water and breaking down chloramines. This last change I added a tsp of aquarium salt in hopes it will act as a stress reducer and help with any diseases they may have.
I hope this is the information you are looking for. Thank you for your help, and caring about fish so much! I appreciate your inout! Have a great day! Happy New Year!!

AmQuil plus removes ammonia and nitrites and can give your water quality tests false readings- unless your tank is cycling and you are battling with bad ammonia or nitrite problems which are killing off your fish, ammonia and nitrite removal chemicals should never be used as they interfere with the beneficial nitrifying bacteria's ecosystem and can harm it by interupting it by starving it of ammonia etc.
When a tank and your nitrifying bacteria is fully established the tank will have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites so the use of chemicals to remove such stats is pointless and potentially harmful to your beneficial bacteria and can give you false water quality readings etc. Nitrates are not harmful to fish unless in very excessive levels (like 40-60 or more).

Salt can reduce the toxity of nitrites and may help fight bacterial and external parasitic infections, but there is nothing that salt can treat that non-salt meds can't treat, the problem with salt is that while ok for most fish in the short term, it can have very damaging effects on freshwater fish in the long term by messing up the fishes osmotic process and causing the fish a strain on its internal organs and even kidney failure and things like kidney stones. So while in the short term using salt on your goldfish will probably only cause your fish minnor stress and may actually help them fight off certain types of parasites and diseases, be careful with using the stuff as it can have bad effects on freshwater fishes health in the long term etc.

The salt is unlikely to help cure the septicemia though, your best bet would be to stop using the AmQuil plus altogether and to do lots of regular water changes and to treat the fish with an anti internal bacterial medicine .
(BTW have a Happy New Year too!)

 

[LRPRESTO]

Thanks for all the advise. I do have a Master test kit (not a cheap one either!) I have the filter and a media section that I have special rock with pores in it for the benaficial bacteria to live. As I said I only change one of the three filters at a time and rotate which ones I change out. They are such piggies and such dirty fish that I think a once a month filter change is needed.
Now you said "AmQuil plus removes ammonia and nitrites and can give your water quality tests false readings" but I'm not putting it into the tank, I'm putting it into the tap water before I put it in the tank. I checked our tap water and it is full of ammonia and nitrates, shouldn't I get rid of that before I put new water into the tank? The way I've been doing my water changes has been workingjust fine for the last two years now. I'm getting confused!
Everybodys advise is great but it seems everyone has a different opionion on how to do it. My question is which is the right way?

 

[Mr._Fishy]

I think I might have found out why I can rinse out my filters in the tap water. We have a chlorine filter! I guess this is why I can rinse with tap water.

Ryan

 

[Imber]

There definitely is a plethora of conflicting information when it comes to fishkeeping so it's pretty easy to become confused by it all. What I've tried to do is just read as much as I can and follow what the majority of experienced fish keepers say. I've been keeping goldfish for a few years now and have done a lot of research to keep my babies healthy so here's what works for me.... Goldfish are very messy fish so weekly water changes work best for me and are generally recommended for goldfish. You said that your goldfish seem less active and go to the bottom before a w/c and perk up after so they are definitely appreciating those changes and if you could step up the frequency then they probably would be a lot happier. Again, I agree with Tokis-Phoenix on the filter media changes. I don't change mine out completely until they're either totally clogged or falling apart. I do rinse them in tank water to get the extra gunk off. I just use Prime as a tap water conditioner. Again, this is what I found most recommended on fishkeeping sites and it is highly concentrated so a little bottle lasts forever. Hope this helps!