Open and close mouth frequently

[h99]

Hi all, would want to seek out for help of what happened to my platies, below is the info of the tank,

- all chlorine, nitrite and amonina are 0, some nitrate but i think it does mot bother
- 60 litre aquarium with around 15 platies, they’ve been in the tanks for years and are doing fine.
- these fishes are diagnosed to be infested by mycobacteria (confirmed by vet in lab check on a remain if a deadfish).

They are living fine even with the sickness, and I am keeping the tank condition super well, for years they are doing super fine.

Only until recently, fishes started to have the open-close mouth problem. they started with frequently open and close the mouth, and then the degree if opening is getting bigger, and finally the mouth cannot be closed.

Vet come and pick one of the dead body for lab test, and the result is multi-type of bacteria infestion, however, she still cannot explain why the fish is opening and closing the mouth - oxygen level are good enough for them.

I would want to try my luck of seeing if any experienced folks here had faced this before…i may not be able to cure the disease, but would really want to know what happened so to see if there’s a way to make them more confortable - in all cases, fishes ultimate die because they cannot eat (i tried all minineral substitutes, small food powder and hope they can still eat some, some of them did live longer.

Below video is the best I could do

Thanks!

 

[MaloK]

I never seen or heard anything like this.

The "multi-type of bacterial infection" Part has to be clarified. Even more if you are paying a vet to diagnose the problem.

At first sight. Your Fish in the video is is showing acute respiratory distress. That can be caused by parasites, bacteria and bad water, or all three.

At this point the irritation or the infection has done such damage that your fish suffocates, ending with a death with the mouth jammed open.

You need to keep aeration really high, and have an answer on the "multi-type of bacterial infection" thing.

A veterinary that states being able to solve your issue, Should have been able to take a scrape of your dead fish gills and put it under a microscope and instantly get you a med for the parasite and for the bacteria.

I'm not kidding. This is a one time visit. And anything else but a real resolution at first time... Makes me really angry.

 

[Colin_T]

When fish are sitting on the bottom breathing heavily like the one in the video, they are dying and should be euthanised.

When fish breath heavily it is their way of getting more oxygen because they are either in pain or suffocating. They can have problems with their gills or infections in their mouth/ throat area, or any major internal problem like organ failure, will cause them to breath rapidly.

If the fish have TB (Mycobacteria), the bacteria can appear in the mouth or gills and cause them to suffocate slowly. Depending on how long it takes for them to die from when they first show the rapid breathing will determine if it's Mycobacteria causing that particular problem of another type of bacteria. If it happens quickly (within a few days), its not a Mycobacterium infection in the mouth, throat or gills, and is most likely another type of bacteria. However, if Mycobacteria have damaged internal organs (and that is usually how they work), the fish will bloat up overnight, stop eating, do a stringy white poop, breath rapidly (usually at the surface or by a filter outlet) and die within 24-48 hours of showing these symptoms. When Mycobacteria damage internal organs, the heavy/ rapid breathing is the fish trying to deal with the pain and is not related to an infection in the mouth, throat or gills.

---------------------

For minor infections in the mouth and throat, you can sometimes treat them with salt. Platies tolerate salt very well and you could try salt to see if it helps prevent more fish developing minor infections in the mouth throat area. However, salt will not help with Mycobacteria, nothing can treat that disease in fish and if the heavy breathing is caused by internal organ failure, then salt won't help with the breathing issue.

---------------------

SALT
You can add rock salt (often sold as aquarium salt), swimming pool salt, or any non iodised salt (sodium chloride) to the aquarium at the dose rate of 1 heaped tablespoon per 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. If there is no improvement after 48 hours you can double that dose rate so there is 2 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

If you only have livebearers (guppies, platies, swordtails, mollies), goldfish or rainbowfish in the tank you can double that dose rate, so you would add 2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres and if there is no improvement after 48 hours, then increase it so there is a total of 4 heaped tablespoons of salt per 20 litres.

Keep the salt level like this for at least 2 weeks but no longer than 4 weeks otherwise kidney damage can occur. Kidney damage is more likely to occur in fish from soft water (tetras, Corydoras, angelfish, Bettas & gouramis, loaches) that are exposed to high levels of salt for an extended period of time, and is not an issue with livebearers, rainbowfish or other salt tolerant species.

The salt will not affect the beneficial filter bacteria but the higher dose rate (4 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will affect some plants and some snails. The lower dose rate (1-2 heaped tablespoons per 20 litres) will not affect fish, plants, shrimp or snails.

After you use salt and the fish have recovered, you do a 10% water change each day for a week using only fresh water that has been dechlorinated. Then do a 20% water change each day for a week. Then you can do bigger water changes after that. This dilutes the salt out of the tank slowly so it doesn't harm the fish.

If you do water changes while using salt, you need to treat the new water with salt before adding it to the tank. This will keep the salt level stable in the tank and minimise stress on the fish.

When you first add salt, add the salt to a small bucket of tank water (2 litres or 1/2 gallon) and dissolve the salt. Then slowly pour the salt water into the tank near the filter outlet. Add the salt over a couple of minutes.

 

[Colin_T]

If you have Mycobacteria in your aquariums, you should avoid getting aquarium water on your skin if you have open wounds. The Mycobacteria can get into open wounds and cause a localised infection known as a granuloma. These are really hard to treat and usually involve months on antibiotics. If you have open wounds on your skin, wear rubber gloves if you have to do anything in the tank or avoid working in the tank/s until the wounds have healed. And wash your hands and arms with warm soapy water after working in the tank.

Most people don't get granuloma infections but anyone can, and if you have an impaired immune system you are at a much higher risk of catching it. People with underlying health issues (cancer, heart problems, diabetes, etc) or really old people or very young people are much more likely to catch Mycobacteria than people that aren't in those categories.

If you get a sore on your hands or arms that isn't healing normally (within 2 weeks), go and see your doctor and tell them you have Mycobacteria in your fish tank. Get the doctor to take a swab of the infection and send it off for culturing. The doctor will probably want you on antibiotics while you wait but you should avoid any antibiotics until you know what the infection is. If it is Mycobacteria, you can only treat them with certain antibiotics and throwing anything at them (like some doctors do before it's properly diagnosed) just makes the problem worse. So try to wait for the results before taking antibiotics. It normally takes about a week to get the results. Having said this, if your doctor says you have a fever and a bacterial infection and prescribes you with antibiotics, then take them. Mycobacterial infections do not usually involve a fever, and they produce a small localised sore where the infection is, that doesn't heal.

The following links have more info on Fish TB (Mycobacteria) infecting people.

Questions regarding fish TB

So I have been reading things in Manual of Fish Health and this forum and have a bunch of questions regarding fish TB: 1. Why TB are common in fish from south/asian farm? 2. Can fish get TB even if you don’t buy new fish? 3. I always have cuts on my hand (I don’t know how?) How many percent can...

www.fishforums.net

TB, and effected fish…

So I’m not really understanding this, as it wasn’t around, when I had tanks 20 years ago ( or at least hadn’t been diagnosed ) Rumored to have come from Asian farming techniques… some fish species seem to be more susceptible to it than others ( my 1st experience, was with yellow axelrodi...

www.fishforums.net

wow... these look incredible... trying to look beyond TB

so, with me giving up on rainbow fish, maybe Killi's ??? assume not in the same TB history tank... but these could certainly fulfill the color urge... um... maybe with a little more economical variety...

www.fishforums.net

 

[h99]

I never seen or heard anything like this.

The "multi-type of bacterial infection" Part has to be clarified. Even more if you are paying a vet to diagnose the problem.

At first sight. Your Fish in the video is is showing acute respiratory distress. That can be caused by parasites, bacteria and bad water, or all three.

At this point the irritation or the infection has done such damage that your fish suffocates, ending with a death with the mouth jammed open.

You need to keep aeration really high, and have an answer on the "multi-type of bacterial infection" thing.

A veterinary that states being able to solve your issue, Should have been able to take a scrape of your dead fish gills and put it under a microscope and instantly get you a med for the parasite and for the bacteria.

I'm not kidding. This is a one time visit. And anything else but a real resolution at first time... Makes me really angry.

She had check by picking up one of them and scrape as you said, there are no parasite.

In terms of multi bacteria infestion, I had attached the lab check result. there are quite something that I do not understand, but I am suggested 2 option, either aggressive euthanise all if them or euthanise only the one that have visible syndrome.

I tried the latter one but it does not seem to work..

water quality should be ok, at least all nitrite/nitrate/ ammonia and chlorine / ph are stable, but i might jave missed the part of aeration

 

[h99]

If you have Mycobacteria in your aquariums, you should avoid getting aquarium water on your skin if you have open wounds. The Mycobacteria can get into open wounds and cause a localised infection known as a granuloma. These are really hard to treat and usually involve months on antibiotics. If you have open wounds on your skin, wear rubber gloves if you have to do anything in the tank or avoid working in the tank/s until the wounds have healed. And wash your hands and arms with warm soapy water after working in the tank.

Most people don't get granuloma infections but anyone can, and if you have an impaired immune system you are at a much higher risk of catching it. People with underlying health issues (cancer, heart problems, diabetes, etc) or really old people or very young people are much more likely to catch Mycobacteria than people that aren't in those categories.

If you get a sore on your hands or arms that isn't healing normally (within 2 weeks), go and see your doctor and tell them you have Mycobacteria in your fish tank. Get the doctor to take a swab of the infection and send it off for culturing. The doctor will probably want you on antibiotics while you wait but you should avoid any antibiotics until you know what the infection is. If it is Mycobacteria, you can only treat them with certain antibiotics and throwing anything at them (like some doctors do before it's properly diagnosed) just makes the problem worse. So try to wait for the results before taking antibiotics. It normally takes about a week to get the results. Having said this, if your doctor says you have a fever and a bacterial infection and prescribes you with antibiotics, then take them. Mycobacterial infections do not usually involve a fever, and they produce a small localised sore where the infection is, that doesn't heal.

The following links have more info on Fish TB (Mycobacteria) infecting people.

Questions regarding fish TB

So I have been reading things in Manual of Fish Health and this forum and have a bunch of questions regarding fish TB: 1. Why TB are common in fish from south/asian farm? 2. Can fish get TB even if you don’t buy new fish? 3. I always have cuts on my hand (I don’t know how?) How many percent can...

www.fishforums.net

TB, and effected fish…

So I’m not really understanding this, as it wasn’t around, when I had tanks 20 years ago ( or at least hadn’t been diagnosed ) Rumored to have come from Asian farming techniques… some fish species seem to be more susceptible to it than others ( my 1st experience, was with yellow axelrodi...

www.fishforums.net

wow... these look incredible... trying to look beyond TB

so, with me giving up on rainbow fish, maybe Killi's ??? assume not in the same TB history tank... but these could certainly fulfill the color urge... um... maybe with a little more economical variety...

www.fishforums.net

Thanks! I was also warned by the vet this, and few months ago I had a similar syndrome, the doctor checked and confirmed as no.

I will make sure to use a glove and do hand wash after handling the fishes.

Also thanks for the links, will check them out after work!

Do you think uv light will help? i searched on internet and seems some ppl use it and help reducing the amount of i festion

 

[Colin_T]

In terms of multi bacteria infestion, I had attached the lab check result. there are quite something that I do not understand, but I am suggested 2 option, either aggressive euthanise all if them or euthanise only the one that have visible syndrome.

I tried the latter one but it does not seem to work..

The pathology report basically says they got 2 platies in formalin. They cut them open and checked the organs. Fish 1 had a number of different sized granulomas (small lumpy things full of bacteria typically associated with Mycobacteria) in the organs. There was also some dead and rotting tissue there.

Fish 2 had even more granulomas and most of the kidneys were taken over by the granulomas.

They are going to do a Ziehl Neelsen test for you at no extra charge and it will confirm or deny Mycobacteria and should tell them what species it is.

-------------------

You have 2 options when dealing with Fish TB in aquariums.
1) You either kill everything in the tank, disinfect the aquarium and everything in it and used in it, then start again if you want to.

2) You let the fish live until they show symptoms (like the current platy is doing) and then kill that fish to stop it suffering. Eventually all the fish die and you disinfect the tank and everything associated with it and start again if you want to.

If you choose option 1, be warned that any fish can have a Mycobacterial infection and you won't know until it shows symptoms just before it dies. Wild caught fishes are much less likely to have Fish TB and fishes from German fish farms are usually less likely to have it. However, fish from Asian fish farms will probably have it and it is found in virtually every pet shop around the world. So the chances of it appearing again are definitely there.

Having said that, I would not add new fish to an aquarium that has a confirmed Mycobacterium infection because the new fish will die from it. It's a luck of the draw type scenario where any fish you get could have it or might not have it. If you can deal with watching your fish die one by one, let them die and then disinfect everything and start again. Hopefully the next lot of fish you get will be free of it and live long happy lives.

-------------------

An ultraviolet (UV) steriliser won't make any difference. It only takes one Mycobacterium cell to get into the fish and then it's over. The UV steriliser won't have any effect on the disease that is already in the fish and that is what you need to stop (the infection in the fish). However, you can't stop the infection in the fish and any fish in that particular tank will already be infected, so a UV steriliser isn't going to help at this stage.

The bacteria grow slower in cooler water and faster in warm water. If you keep the tanks at 20-24C the fish will live longer than if they are kept at 26-28C.

-------------------

I am sorry you have to go through this. I went through it in 2006 and killed all my fish and got rid of my tanks. I haven't kept freshwater fish since. It's a horrible disease that kills everything it infects and destroys you watching the fish die.

 

[MaloK]

She had check by picking up one of them and scrape as you said, there are no parasite.

In terms of multi bacteria infestion, I had attached the lab check result. there are quite something that I do not understand, but I am suggested 2 option, either aggressive euthanise all if them or euthanise only the one that have visible syndrome.

I tried the latter one but it does not seem to work..

water quality should be ok, at least all nitrite/nitrate/ ammonia and chlorine / ph are stable, but i might jave missed the part of aeration

I'm very sorry for what is happening to you... This report is very bad news.

 

[h99]

The pathology report basically says they got 2 platies in formalin. They cut them open and checked the organs. Fish 1 had a number of different sized granulomas (small lumpy things full of bacteria typically associated with Mycobacteria) in the organs. There was also some dead and rotting tissue there.

Fish 2 had even more granulomas and most of the kidneys were taken over by the granulomas.

They are going to do a Ziehl Neelsen test for you at no extra charge and it will confirm or deny Mycobacteria and should tell them what species it is.

-------------------

You have 2 options when dealing with Fish TB in aquariums.
1) You either kill everything in the tank, disinfect the aquarium and everything in it and used in it, then start again if you want to.

2) You let the fish live until they show symptoms (like the current platy is doing) and then kill that fish to stop it suffering. Eventually all the fish die and you disinfect the tank and everything associated with it and start again if you want to.

If you choose option 1, be warned that any fish can have a Mycobacterial infection and you won't know until it shows symptoms just before it dies. Wild caught fishes are much less likely to have Fish TB and fishes from German fish farms are usually less likely to have it. However, fish from Asian fish farms will probably have it and it is found in virtually every pet shop around the world. So the chances of it appearing again are definitely there.

Having said that, I would not add new fish to an aquarium that has a confirmed Mycobacterium infection because the new fish will die from it. It's a luck of the draw type scenario where any fish you get could have it or might not have it. If you can deal with watching your fish die one by one, let them die and then disinfect everything and start again. Hopefully the next lot of fish you get will be free of it and live long happy lives.

-------------------

An ultraviolet (UV) steriliser won't make any difference. It only takes one Mycobacterium cell to get into the fish and then it's over. The UV steriliser won't have any effect on the disease that is already in the fish and that is what you need to stop (the infection in the fish). However, you can't stop the infection in the fish and any fish in that particular tank will already be infected, so a UV steriliser isn't going to help at this stage.

The bacteria grow slower in cooler water and faster in warm water. If you keep the tanks at 20-24C the fish will live longer than if they are kept at 26-28C.

-------------------

I am sorry you have to go through this. I went through it in 2006 and killed all my fish and got rid of my tanks. I haven't kept freshwater fish since. It's a horrible disease that kills everything it infects and destroys you watching the fish die.

I’ve already been heart breaking when I have to kill those that have heavy syndrome, I cannot imagine how would that be if I have timo kill them all by myself, vet did suggest me for long, sometimes i think this is a better decision than seeing them infested and die by cannot eat, on another side i cannot do it because I still hold a little hope that some of them might not have been infested - especially when seeing them swimming fast and eating happily, i hold my clove oil drops…

did try but i fail it

Thanks for the advices, did you switch to see water fish afterwards?

 

[Colin_T]

I’ve already been heart breaking when I have to kill those that have heavy syndrome, I cannot imagine how would that be if I have timo kill them all by myself, vet did suggest me for long, sometimes i think this is a better decision than seeing them infested and die by cannot eat, on another side i cannot do it because I still hold a little hope that some of them might not have been infested - especially when seeing them swimming fast and eating happily, i hold my clove oil drops…

did try but i fail it

I spent several years trying to find a cure for my fish and there was nothing. I hoped some of the fish would be fine but fish that look fine would be fine and breeding one day and bloated up the next, and dead shortly after that. It really messes with your head watching them die one by one but killing them all at the same time isn't any easier. I killed all mine after years of watching them drop off one at a time and I didn't go near the tanks for a couple of weeks after that. I just couldn't cope with it. The buckets of bodies and my pet fish were all dead and there was nothing I could do about it.

Thanks for the advices, did you switch to see water fish afterwards?

Yeah I went to saltwater fishes a few years after losing my freshwater ones. But I only keep stuff I catch and won't get anything from a pet shop because they use the same nets and buckets in the fresh and saltwater aquariums.

 

[h99]

I spent several years trying to find a cure for my fish and there was nothing. I hoped some of the fish would be fine but fish that look fine would be fine and breeding one day and bloated up the next, and dead shortly after that. It really messes with your head watching them die one by one but killing them all at the same time isn't any easier. I killed all mine after years of watching them drop off one at a time and I didn't go near the tanks for a couple of weeks after that. I just couldn't cope with it. The buckets of bodies and my pet fish were all dead and there was nothing I could do about it.



Yeah I went to saltwater fishes a few years after losing my freshwater ones. But I only keep stuff I catch and won't get anything from a pet shop because they use the same nets and buckets in the fresh and saltwater aquariums.

Thanks for sharing, this is exactly how I felt, like few months ago a batch had to be killed as they showed some syndrome, I can hardly even move close to the tank after that for days…and I keep convincing myself “it is for the goodness of the remaining” finally helped me to cope with that, but now I dare not to do it again.

Is the maintenance cost if salt water fish high? I feel difficult to maintain the salinity… also when you mentioned about catching from wild, where on UK would have such kind of place(i tried to check around and dont seem to see any river like those next to the power plant in Germany)

 

[Colin_T]

Marine aquariums can be set up for a similar price to freshwater aquariums with the exception of salt water. You can buy artificial marine salts and they cost a bit of money or you can go to a beach and collect natural seawater (which is what I do). I also grab sand, rocks, shells, etc while at the beach. Some countries have restrictions on collection rocks and beach sand but you can normally take seawater for an aquarium without any issues. Just find a clean area with lots of fish and seaweed and no oil slicks, boats or people, and grab some water. I had 30 litre plastic water containers that I took to the beach and filled them up to use at home in the tanks. These days I would have to use 10 litre containers because I can't lift 30 litres anymore.

The other thing you need is a hydrometer to measure the salt level. These are available in three styles (floating glass, plastic chamber, digital probe/ refractometer). The plastic chamber is my preferred choice due to being cheaper than digital but lasting longer than both. However, it's not as accurate as the refractometer with lower levels of salt.

If you have a coral tank with live corals, you can add calcium and a few other supplements to the list of things you need unless you do regular water changes. I just changed 90% of the tank water each month and my corals and anemones were fine without supplements. If you do smaller water changes and have lots of stony corals then you will probably need supplements.

For a tank without corals you treat it the same as a freshwater tank. Do a big water change every few weeks, clean the filter monthly. Have marine algae to help provide green, red and brown colours. Add some shrimp or whatever else you like and feed them.

You use the same aquarium, filter, heater and light for fresh and saltwater aquariums. Some shops will insist you have special lights for corals but any light with a 6500K rating and that is powerful enough to grow plants will be adequate for corals. The sun doesn't change spectrum or intensity when it goes over the ocean or forests so you don't need special lights for marine tanks. Just a good quality daylight globe with a 6500K rating.

I am in Australia and we are surrounded by coastline with temperate and tropical marine fishes. The tropical ones are regularly found in crocodile infested waters but you can still find tropical fishes further south, well away from crocodiles. I kept a lot of temperate stuff that I caught 20km from my home. I just went to the beach each month and did some collecting and got a heap of water for the tanks.

In the UK you should be able to get some fish and other creatures from local beaches if you want temperate. If you want tropical you will have to buy them from a pet shop. If you do get them from a pet shop, try and buy them from a shop that only carries saltwater fishes so there is less chance of the fish having TB, which they can get from equipment like nets used on freshwater fishes. The other option is to get the fish from the pet shop when they first come in. You ask the shop if you can order some marine fish. They get the fish in and you are at the shop waiting for them. You take the fish straight out of the boxes and take them home. That way they don't get exposed to anything at the shop.

We had a marine only shop around here but a few weeks ago they started selling freshwater fishes. I won't be buying anything out of their tanks again. I might get stuff in from them but will get it out of the boxes before they stick it in their tanks.